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Post by BOGC on Dec 6, 2021 1:38:38 GMT -5
But the issue is not whether they (or you) trust the vaccine. The issue is whether you trust the FDA, CDC and Fauci. Harris and Biden have always trusted the FDA, CDC and Fauci. What they did not trust was the potential for political interference in the FDA, CDC and Fauci. When that political interference did not materialize, there was no longer any issue. I don't trust institutions or strangers; not Fauci, Biden, Harris, not even Trump - although I liked his policies (although not all of his behavior) better; the Democrats and bureaucrats are chronic liars/manipulators/spinners - whereas Trump's problem with reality is that the first thing he'd often say was whatever came to mind, not what had been checked enough to make sure it wasn't crazy; but once something got beyond words and to planning, it WOULD be checked and he'd be told what he couldn't do (and sometimes, an acceptable way of doing the same thing differently). I trust that I've read enough explanations (not sound bites or press releases, but either studies or summaries of them) to decide for myself that the odds are better (not certain either way!) with the vaccine than without. The politicians or purported experts that have ANY conflict of interest (power, profit, kissing boss's backside, etc), can go creatively bleep themselves. edit: and in addition to just opposing authority on general principle, that's my big objection to mandates: following orders is not a substitute for doing your own thinking and at least your own review of the research, even if you don't have a lab to actually replicate it in. Trusting any institution or stranger is surrendering power to them, almost always a mistake, since they or their successors will want you to get ever deeper into the habit of surrendering power to them. Read "1984", or even "Animal Farm". Orwell himself was a socialist, but he was warning against those that went even further in that direction than he did.
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Post by Socal Fan on Dec 6, 2021 7:42:29 GMT -5
my big objection to mandates All laws are mandates - to do something or not do something. If you object to mandates, you object to laws. By definition, all laws reduce freedom. But without laws, there is no orderly society, only anarchy. Some people prefer anarchy, I'm not one of them.
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Post by 1 Guest on Dec 6, 2021 8:42:23 GMT -5
my big objection to mandates All laws are mandates - to do something or not do something. If you object to mandates, you object to laws. By definition, all laws reduce freedom. But without laws, there is no orderly society, only anarchy. Some people prefer anarchy, I'm not one of them. All laws don't require you to have an experimental drug shot into you, over and over and over, and if the result is myocarditis, serious side effects, or it's fatal, there's nothing that can be done about it because Big Pharma is can't be touched.
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Post by Socal Fan on Dec 6, 2021 8:58:13 GMT -5
All laws don't require you to have an experimental drug shot into you, over and over and over, and if the result is myocarditis, serious side effects, or it's fatal, there's nothing that can be done about it because Big Pharma is can't be touched. There are risks associated with taking the vaccine but they are far outweighed by the risks of not taking the vaccine. But, please, give Darwin a chance!
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Post by Socal Fan on Dec 6, 2021 9:00:41 GMT -5
I don't trust institutions or strangers; not Fauci, Biden, Harris, not even Trump ... I trust that I've read enough explanations (not sound bites or press releases, but either studies or summaries of them) to decide for myself But who wrote those explanations (and studies or summaries) you read, if not institutions or strangers? The ones you don't trust.
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Post by 1 Guest on Dec 6, 2021 9:10:10 GMT -5
All laws don't require you to have an experimental drug shot into you, over and over and over, and if the result is myocarditis, serious side effects, or it's fatal, there's nothing that can be done about it because Big Pharma is can't be touched. There are risks associated with taking the vaccine but they are far outweighed by the risks of not taking the vaccine. But, please, give Darwin a chance! The risk of covid doesn't outweigh the risk of the shot in young people.
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Post by Socal Fan on Dec 6, 2021 11:38:07 GMT -5
The risk of covid doesn't outweigh the risk of the shot in young people. The CDC disagrees. www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s1102-PediatricCOVID-19Vaccine.htmlCDC Recommends Pediatric COVID-19 Vaccine for Children 5 to 11 YearsCOVID-19 cases in children can result in hospitalizations, deaths, MIS-C (inflammatory syndromes) and long-term complications, such as “long COVID,” in which symptoms can linger for months. The spread of the Delta variant resulted in a surge of COVID-19 cases in children throughout the summer. During a 6-week period in late June to mid-August, COVID-19 hospitalizations among children and adolescents increased fivefold. Vaccination, along with other preventative measures, can protect children from COVID-19 using the safe and effective vaccines already recommended for use in adolescents and adults in the United States. Similar to what was seen in adult vaccine trials, vaccination was nearly 91 percent effective in preventing COVID-19 among children aged 5-11 years. In clinical trials, vaccine side effects were mild, self-limiting, and similar to those seen in adults and with other vaccines recommended for children. The most common side effect was a sore arm.
COVID-19 vaccines have undergone – and will continue to undergo – the most intensive safety monitoring in U.S. history. Vaccinating children will help protect them from getting COVID-19 and therefore reducing their risk of severe disease, hospitalizations, or developing long-term COVID-19 complications. Getting your children vaccinated can help protect them against COVID-19, as well as reduce disruptions to in-person learning and activities by helping curb community transmission.
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Post by 1 Guest on Dec 6, 2021 11:43:02 GMT -5
The risk of covid doesn't outweigh the risk of the shot in young people. The CDC disagrees. www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s1102-PediatricCOVID-19Vaccine.htmlCDC Recommends Pediatric COVID-19 Vaccine for Children 5 to 11 YearsCOVID-19 cases in children can result in hospitalizations, deaths, MIS-C (inflammatory syndromes) and long-term complications, such as “long COVID,” in which symptoms can linger for months. The spread of the Delta variant resulted in a surge of COVID-19 cases in children throughout the summer. During a 6-week period in late June to mid-August, COVID-19 hospitalizations among children and adolescents increased fivefold. Vaccination, along with other preventative measures, can protect children from COVID-19 using the safe and effective vaccines already recommended for use in adolescents and adults in the United States. Similar to what was seen in adult vaccine trials, vaccination was nearly 91 percent effective in preventing COVID-19 among children aged 5-11 years. In clinical trials, vaccine side effects were mild, self-limiting, and similar to those seen in adults and with other vaccines recommended for children. The most common side effect was a sore arm.
COVID-19 vaccines have undergone – and will continue to undergo – the most intensive safety monitoring in U.S. history. Vaccinating children will help protect them from getting COVID-19 and therefore reducing their risk of severe disease, hospitalizations, or developing long-term COVID-19 complications. Getting your children vaccinated can help protect them against COVID-19, as well as reduce disruptions to in-person learning and activities by helping curb community transmission.Apparently you trust the CDC to give accurate stats of the negative side effects of a vaccine that they're pushing on children. I don't. And of course they can't be certain of the long lasting effects of the vaccine, it's too new. I guess you also believed that masks are dangerous. Anyone who chooses to inject their children with the vaccine has the right to do so, but no one would EVER force me to give it to my young children.
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Post by Socal Fan on Dec 6, 2021 11:49:30 GMT -5
Anyone who chooses to inject their children with the vaccine has the right to do so, but no one would EVER force me to give it to my young children. Excellent! Give Darwin a chance!
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Post by 1 Guest on Dec 6, 2021 12:08:43 GMT -5
Anyone who chooses to inject their children with the vaccine has the right to do so, but no one would EVER force me to give it to my young children. Excellent! Give Darwin a chance! I guess you'd have no problem if your 5 year old had a bad heart for the rest of their lives. Then again, with a bad heart they might not have to live with it all that long. And there's plenty of evidence that it does cause mycarditis. Big Pharma just makes the vaccine, so they can't be sued because they're not forcing people to take it. The Government is, therefore, they are responsible for what happens to people resulting from the vaccine.
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Post by BOGC on Dec 6, 2021 17:00:33 GMT -5
my big objection to mandates All laws are mandates - to do something or not do something. If you object to mandates, you object to laws. By definition, all laws reduce freedom. But without laws, there is no orderly society, only anarchy. Some people prefer anarchy, I'm not one of them. The question isn't all or none, it's how many, and how intrusive. Vaccination, however much it may advance the common good, is definitely intrusive. And anyone that WANTS to solve problems by expanding the power of government either more than very briefly (days, not years) or more than very minimally, should be expelled from office and denied for life any future position of authority, trust, responsibility, or credibility. Basically, the left should be eliminated, and half the right; the only thing legitimate is non-authoritarian conservatives and libertarians (and a non-labeled paleo-just-leave-me-alone), all the rest are wannabe dictators (at the lowest level, like the busybody in the community association that expects everyone to live according to THEIR personal rules) that should be either re-educated or sent away, preferably to he|| or some communist poophole, not that there's much difference. All the laws we need are don't murder, assault, threaten, steal or destroy property, lie or coerce for gain; and honor contracts. Everything else follows from that. Fraud is fraud whether it's in person, by mail, or over the internet. Pollution can be dealt with via civil lawsuits. Government can just f off otherwise, except for securing the borders and blowing up lots of hostile foreigners from time to time. A huge compendium of laws, no matter how significant the problems it seeks to solve, is an excuse for the discretion to enforce against opponents and not enforce against supporters. It ends up like any other excess simply becoming another route to accumulating power. As to vaccination specifically, you want it, get it; that's not enough for you, buy a better mask (there are some that are beyond N95 and seal better than a paper mask; I have one, and have worn it recently during air travel) and wear it 100% of the time and never eat or drink or otherwise take it off in public. There are actually gas masks with a connector to a canteen adapter cap that can allow drinking water while wearing the mask, and most people that don't have insulin regulation issues can go eight or more hours without eating, or conceivably put some liquid concentrate in the water they drink; so you CAN effectively live in a bubble that keeps you safe from the carelessness or stupidity or public health related malice of others if you really want to make the effort; therefore you have NO justification to demand that anyone allow anything to be done to themselves to mitigate the risk to you.
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Post by BOGC on Dec 6, 2021 17:08:59 GMT -5
Excellent! Give Darwin a chance! I guess you'd have no problem if your 5 year old had a bad heart for the rest of their lives. Then again, with a bad heart they might not have to live with it all that long. And there's plenty of evidence that it does cause mycarditis. Big Pharma just makes the vaccine, so they can't be sued because they're not forcing people to take it. The Government is, therefore, they are responsible for what happens to people resulting from the vaccine. The below-12 doses are 1/3 the strength of the adult doses. IMO another level, say 1/2 or so, might be appropriate for 12-25 and/or people below a certain weight (many drugs have dosages that go up with weight; ideally every drug administered would be preceded by a physical and/or records review more complete than the questionnaire given with vaccines, and every dosing would be fine tuned to the individual; but that's not remotely scalable and some would regard the physical or records review itself as intrusive, and the harm of doing nothing outweighs the harm of doing something not quite perfectly). COVID itself also can cause heart damage. It is not clear how long-term (and how often long-term) the damage from either might be; something minor enough is quite recoverable if not overstressed until recovery is complete. We should EXECUTE people that want mandates; that said, MOST people, even most kids, probably SHOULD get vaccinated; but they or their parents should get smart enough to make an informed decision for themselves, or take the risk (either way) of making or defaulting to an uninformed decision.
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Post by Socal Fan on Dec 6, 2021 18:18:02 GMT -5
I guess you'd have no problem if your 5 year old had a bad heart for the rest of their lives. No need to guess - I have no problem whatsoever with the cardiac risk to my 5 year old because the risk of death or complications due Covid is much higher.
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Post by johnnyb on Dec 6, 2021 20:00:38 GMT -5
I guess you'd have no problem if your 5 year old had a bad heart for the rest of their lives. No need to guess - I have no problem whatsoever with the cardiac risk to my 5 year old because the risk of death or complications due Covid is much higher. "quod ali cibus est aliis fuat acre venenum" (what is food for one man may be bitter poison to others).
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Post by BOGC on Dec 6, 2021 21:08:31 GMT -5
All laws don't require you to have an experimental drug shot into you, over and over and over, and if the result is myocarditis, serious side effects, or it's fatal, there's nothing that can be done about it because Big Pharma is can't be touched. There are risks associated with taking the vaccine but they are far outweighed by the risks of not taking the vaccine. But, please, give Darwin a chance! That's your call for you. It's not your call, nor the government's, for others, give or take that parents may have to make some decisions on behalf of their children; but the rest of us, however stupid, are NOT children, and do NOT need someone else making decisions for us.
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