gordy
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Posts: 246
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Post by gordy on Dec 8, 2017 1:32:28 GMT -5
I fear that there may be others that believe no combatant enemy of the east survives or goes unpunished to return to battle. I would imagine that N Korea is not about to back-off from threats thrown their way by someone that is appearing many countries to be more unstable everyday. If you keep wandering around poking people in the eye then at some point the role will be reversed. There is _no_ moral equivalence between Kim Jong-un and Trump. All three Kims have demonstrated a will to provoke not just by words, but by deeds, as much as is unopposed. Their goal is not simply to be left alone, but to (a) rule the entirety of Korea, and (b) to be respected as a world power. Their rule is a nightmare (look at the nighttime satellite map of the Korean peninsula, where the north is nearly dark) that should not be expanded, and there is absolutely nothing in the _quality_ of their conduct that is worthy of respect. Trump may be brash and obnoxious in mannerism, but in practice, he's no worse that his predecessors, and indeed would probably prefer to reduce rather than increase military interventions, although as most discover when they're actually in the job, the circumstances and reasons for those are often more complex, and the ramifications of disengaging far less straightforward, than they appeared before that point, and to disengage without making matters worse takes far more than just the desire and issuing the orders. WOW.....what a lop sided view. You clearly are a Trump-disciple and stuck in a groove that most of the remaining civilized world does not accept. Trump is a warmonger in capitalization and now stating his agenda over every other western country. Just look at the crap he has stirred up in the middle east with his sole recognition of Jerusalem as the capital. I am really hoping that the UN tells Trump to take a hike. Peace in this world has taken a big step backwards with this bozo with his finger on the button. |
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Post by BOGC on Dec 8, 2017 5:30:47 GMT -5
There is _no_ moral equivalence between Kim Jong-un and Trump. All three Kims have demonstrated a will to provoke not just by words, but by deeds, as much as is unopposed. Their goal is not simply to be left alone, but to (a) rule the entirety of Korea, and (b) to be respected as a world power. Their rule is a nightmare (look at the nighttime satellite map of the Korean peninsula, where the north is nearly dark) that should not be expanded, and there is absolutely nothing in the _quality_ of their conduct that is worthy of respect. Trump may be brash and obnoxious in mannerism, but in practice, he's no worse that his predecessors, and indeed would probably prefer to reduce rather than increase military interventions, although as most discover when they're actually in the job, the circumstances and reasons for those are often more complex, and the ramifications of disengaging far less straightforward, than they appeared before that point, and to disengage without making matters worse takes far more than just the desire and issuing the orders. WOW.....what a lop sided view. You clearly are a Trump-disciple and stuck in a groove that most of the remaining civilized world does not accept. Trump is a warmonger in capitalization and now stating his agenda over every other western country. Just look at the crap he has stirred up in the middle east with his sole recognition of Jerusalem as the capital. I am really hoping that the UN tells Trump to take a hike. Peace in this world has taken a big step backwards with this bozo with his finger on the button. Hardly, I preferred others in the primary. But Kim is the warmonger, Trump simply isn't a wimp that wants to hand over the planet to commies anyway like Obama was. All who are hostile to the west must be either restrained or eradicated. Restraint hasn't helped. Better we risk destroying everything than we just cower and give in to the crazed notion that every tinhorn dictator with delusions of godhood is entitled to be a world power. edit: yes, North Korea really has behaved very badly over the years. Timeline: North Korean attacks |
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Post by richard on Dec 8, 2017 8:44:19 GMT -5
There is _no_ moral equivalence between Kim Jong-un and Trump. All three Kims have demonstrated a will to provoke not just by words, but by deeds, as much as is unopposed. Their goal is not simply to be left alone, but to (a) rule the entirety of Korea, and (b) to be respected as a world power. Their rule is a nightmare (look at the nighttime satellite map of the Korean peninsula, where the north is nearly dark) that should not be expanded, and there is absolutely nothing in the _quality_ of their conduct that is worthy of respect. Trump may be brash and obnoxious in mannerism, but in practice, he's no worse that his predecessors, and indeed would probably prefer to reduce rather than increase military interventions, although as most discover when they're actually in the job, the circumstances and reasons for those are often more complex, and the ramifications of disengaging far less straightforward, than they appeared before that point, and to disengage without making matters worse takes far more than just the desire and issuing the orders. WOW.....what a lop sided view. You clearly are a Trump-disciple and stuck in a groove that most of the remaining civilized world does not accept. Trump is a warmonger in capitalization and now stating his agenda over every other western country. Just look at the crap he has stirred up in the middle east with his sole recognition of Jerusalem as the capital. I am really hoping that the UN tells Trump to take a hike. Peace in this world has taken a big step backwards with this bozo with his finger on the button. I think you have it backwards Trump should tell the UN to take a hike. The United States funds way to much of that useless organization. Then pull out of every weapons agreement the US has because the other countries do not live up to their part of the bargain. |
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Post by stephenswinkler on Dec 8, 2017 13:59:56 GMT -5
BOGC, Trump is not only worse than his predecessors, he is the worst American president in United States history. Incidentally, in that connection, one of Trump predecessors, Nixon went to China, a country with no formal diplomatic relations with the United States. This was unprecedented at the time. Should not Trump follow Nixon's example and go to North Korea? After all, Clinton, another Trump predecessor, went to North Korea to rescue that girl. No, Trump wants a war to become the greatest American president of all time. The cost will be millions of lives in America, Asia, and world. Incidentally, Lincoln is rated as a great president, because he killed over 600,000 lives in his war of Northern Aggression against Southern Independence. Americans want a big victory, one which they did not have since burning Japanese children alive in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What price for glory? Human lives!
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gordy
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Posts: 246
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Post by gordy on Dec 8, 2017 14:19:30 GMT -5
WOW.....what a lop sided view. You clearly are a Trump-disciple and stuck in a groove that most of the remaining civilized world does not accept. Trump is a warmonger in capitalization and now stating his agenda over every other western country. Just look at the crap he has stirred up in the middle east with his sole recognition of Jerusalem as the capital. I am really hoping that the UN tells Trump to take a hike. Peace in this world has taken a big step backwards with this bozo with his finger on the button. I think you have it backwards Trump should tell the UN to take a hike. The United States funds way to much of that useless organization. Then pull out of every weapons agreement the US has because the other countries do not live up to their part of the bargain. What a pompous attitude you possess. You take a position that the US is always right and that it is correct for a businessman like Trump to place the entire world at risk of a nuclear war. Most of the western democracies are shying away from the US because they simply are tired of Trump's flip-flopping and bullying tactics. I agree that Kim Jong-un is a scary piece of work but matching him up with Trump is a recipe for disaster for many countries if not the entire world. An example of how the much of the western world is out of step with the US will be seen by the number of embassies that actual move to Jerusalem..... I bet they will be counted on one hand and still have fingers to spare. Immediately following Trump's announcement of recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and stating the US will move it's embassy there, Canada announced that its' embassy will remain in Tel Aviv and remain in keeping with the UN 1948 accord regarding Jerusalem. Just another example of Trump walking out of agreements made by better US leaders and diplomats.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 23:49:14 GMT -5
So you think Trump has put us at risk of nuclear war? Surely you jest.
I think that some countries are confused by Trump. I believe he has a plan and I hope it works, because appeasement was a guaranteed failure with huge and unwelcome penalties, that has been passed from one president to the next like a hot potato. Trump, at least is the best one suited to the job of dealing with noko.
Don't expect to see any embassies moving for years and years, not even ours. This was just the recognition of a sovereign fact. However, the imagery may just change the nature of the debate. Don't worry about the unrest. The unrest could only be postponed, and only by weak willies. If you want to move something off of dead center, just kick the stool out from under someone's as, and they HAVE to move. This was pretty minor, and by itself, might not work, but they'll listen more closely to what he has to say. Also, I'll bet that a lot of the talk in the middle east contains a healthy dose of posturing along with their natural irritability from being out in the sun too long each day.
Obama a 'better' leader? His only accomplishments in eight years have been to weaponize the IRS, the FBI, the DOJ, and State [and a host of other departments]. His only remarkable positive accomplishment has been to make Jimmy Carter look better by comparison. Obama was only our fifth best president. Washington was first, Reagan and Lincoln were second, 17 others were third, 25 others were fourth and Obama and Carter were fifth.
You just don't understand Trump, and that's fine. I doubt he wants you to.
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gordy
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Posts: 246
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Post by gordy on Dec 9, 2017 2:01:16 GMT -5
It doesn't matter that I understand Trump however it does matter that the leaders of other democratic countries do understand him. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be many that do and that is truly worrisome. Even his closest staff have difficulty dealing with his tweets and then just as often doing a 180 on them. He is clearly a person that has difficulty dealing with the truth as he has stated many untruths of great magnitude and when confronted by the press he immediately goes ostrich and claims fake news. You seem to see him as some sort of savior while the majority of US citizens and most of the free world see him a loose cannon.
You can continue to deflect the truth as Trump does by misdirection but the only person being fooled is you. There is absolutely zero chance that Trump will ever unify and galvanize the USA. It will be undisputable in the very near future that Trump's path to regaining greatness for the country is pure folly on his part.
But that is your problem to sort out. I just don't want to see negative affects to other countries because of his impulsive behaviour. Let him play his own way in his sandbox and not create a fuss in others that don't share his visions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2017 11:10:50 GMT -5
NoKo is not of his making. It has been thrust on him/us by Obama who was such a pansy. His only claim to fame was his "Community Organizer" job before he bought a senate seat and acted like a good back-bencher for two years. I used to work with "Community Organizers", and the only depth they have is in the mirror constantly in front of them. They are colossally stupid and wilt under pressure, just as Obama did, but he did it on a grander, more dangerous scale. This is the mess that has to be dealt with.
You have a shallow understanding of how Trump does what he does, and says what he says. I didn't like him, and didn't vote for him. Not in the primaries. I voted for "Anybody but Clinton the crook" in the General election, and I'd do it again and again. Trump has grown on me. I see what he's up to, and I approve, knowing that what he's trying to accomplish is important and overdue. It will be messy and likely painful, but like a Fram oil filter commercial, "You can pay me now, or pay me later."
You should start listening to Fox News, as well as the seriously compromised, bought-and-paid-for other channels you listen to.
By the way, unifying the country may be a talking point Trump uses, but I doubt he has any illusions about the likelihood of that happening. Usually, Americans have needed an outside enemy at the gates before they would 'unite'. Maybe if Canada were to attack?? That might do it. NoKo won't until it was too late.
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Post by BOGC on Dec 9, 2017 12:07:00 GMT -5
BOGC, Trump is not only worse than his predecessors, he is the worst American president in United States history. Incidentally, in that connection, one of Trump predecessors, Nixon went to China, a country with no formal diplomatic relations with the United States. This was unprecedented at the time. Should not Trump follow Nixon's example and go to North Korea? After all, Clinton, another Trump predecessor, went to North Korea to rescue that girl. No, Trump wants a war to become the greatest American president of all time. The cost will be millions of lives in America, Asia, and world. Incidentally, Lincoln is rated as a great president, because he killed over 600,000 lives in his war of Northern Aggression against Southern Independence. Americans want a big victory, one which they did not have since burning Japanese children alive in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What price for glory? Human lives! No glory at all, just taking out the trash, like I said - and all enemies of the west are trash, some just haven't been cremated yet. The people of places like North Korea are captives of their evil rulers. It would be great if we could liberate them bloodlessly, but the fact is we might have to settle for second best and not be squeamish about acceptable collateral damage (i.e. some fraction of those under the authority of dictators, tyrants, communists, caliphates, or other such psychos). And yeah, even the children of enemies are acceptable collateral damage. Don't even think about what the Japanese did when they invaded China and Korea, not nearly so merciful as a quick incineration. |
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Post by BOGC on Dec 9, 2017 12:43:57 GMT -5
I think you have it backwards Trump should tell the UN to take a hike. The United States funds way to much of that useless organization. Then pull out of every weapons agreement the US has because the other countries do not live up to their part of the bargain. What a pompous attitude you possess. You take a position that the US is always right and that it is correct for a businessman like Trump to place the entire world at risk of a nuclear war. Most of the western democracies are shying away from the US because they simply are tired of Trump's flip-flopping and bullying tactics. I agree that Kim Jong-un is a scary piece of work but matching him up with Trump is a recipe for disaster for many countries if not the entire world. An example of how the much of the western world is out of step with the US will be seen by the number of embassies that actual move to Jerusalem..... I bet they will be counted on one hand and still have fingers to spare. Immediately following Trump's announcement of recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and stating the US will move it's embassy there, Canada announced that its' embassy will remain in Tel Aviv and remain in keeping with the UN 1948 accord regarding Jerusalem. Just another example of Trump walking out of agreements made by better US leaders and diplomats.
Either we lead, or we leave a power vacuum that's more dangerous than anything we could do (how we got to this point with North Korea, thanks to the negligence of the last four or five administrations). And I don't in the slightest care how many we offend over Jerusalem; indeed, I rather think that those most offended well deserve being reminded that there's only one divine land grant on the planet, and that's Israel. If that creates conflict, bring it; if there's to be Armageddon (although I for one am in _no_ hurry), it won't be their version of it, that's for sure. |
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gordy
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Posts: 246
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Post by gordy on Dec 9, 2017 12:44:26 GMT -5
BOGC, Trump is not only worse than his predecessors, he is the worst American president in United States history. Incidentally, in that connection, one of Trump predecessors, Nixon went to China, a country with no formal diplomatic relations with the United States. This was unprecedented at the time. Should not Trump follow Nixon's example and go to North Korea? After all, Clinton, another Trump predecessor, went to North Korea to rescue that girl. No, Trump wants a war to become the greatest American president of all time. The cost will be millions of lives in America, Asia, and world. Incidentally, Lincoln is rated as a great president, because he killed over 600,000 lives in his war of Northern Aggression against Southern Independence. Americans want a big victory, one which they did not have since burning Japanese children alive in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What price for glory? Human lives! No glory at all, just taking out the trash, like I said - and all enemies of the west are trash, some just haven't been cremated yet. The people of places like North Korea are captives of their evil rulers. It would be great if we could liberate them bloodlessly, but the fact is we might have to settle for second best and not be squeamish about acceptable collateral damage (i.e. some fraction of those under the authority of dictators, tyrants, communists, caliphates, or other such psychos). And yeah, even the children of enemies are acceptable collateral damage. Don't even think about what the Japanese did when they invaded China and Korea, not nearly so merciful as a quick incineration. When you say "quick incineration", perhaps in regard to N. Korea, are you referring to the use of nukes? If so, do you think China is going to sit back quietly and watch the fireworks that will eventually involve some fallout dropping on Chinese citizens? That will not happen, they will join N Korea and lob there own nukes back at the US and you can be sure their arsenal is accurate and capable of neutralizing the US and I would not discount Russia, who also borders on N, Korea, to enter the picture.
Certainly N Korea will vapourize but I fear the same outcome will be in store for the US while a great portion of world may feel the affects of some level of a nuclear winter. The first to feel that affect would be S. Korea and then Japan.
Under any other US administration I would say that this scenario is unlikely but with Trump all bets are off.....he is totally irrational and marches to his own defective drum. When you have two loose cannons talking nuclear destruction of one another then one can't help but feel a bit nervous about their fingers resting upon the button.
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Post by BOGC on Dec 9, 2017 13:04:54 GMT -5
No glory at all, just taking out the trash, like I said - and all enemies of the west are trash, some just haven't been cremated yet. The people of places like North Korea are captives of their evil rulers. It would be great if we could liberate them bloodlessly, but the fact is we might have to settle for second best and not be squeamish about acceptable collateral damage (i.e. some fraction of those under the authority of dictators, tyrants, communists, caliphates, or other such psychos). And yeah, even the children of enemies are acceptable collateral damage. Don't even think about what the Japanese did when they invaded China and Korea, not nearly so merciful as a quick incineration. When you say "quick incineration", perhaps in regard to N. Korea, are you referring to the use of nukes? If so, do you think China is going to sit back quietly and watch the fireworks that will eventually involve some fallout dropping on Chinese citizens? That will not happen, they will join N Korea and lob there own nukes back at the US and you can be sure their arsenal is accurate and capable of neutralizing the US and I would not discount Russia, who also borders on N, Korea, to enter the picture.
Certainly N Korea will vapourize but I fear the same outcome will be in store for the US while a great portion of world may feel the affects of some level of a nuclear winter. The first to feel that affect would be S. Korea and then Japan.
Under any other US administration I would say that this scenario is unlikely but with Trump all bets are off.....he is totally irrational and marches to his own defective drum. When you have two loose cannons talking nuclear destruction of one another then one can't help but feel a bit nervous about their fingers resting upon the button.
I'm referring to what happened in the past at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that our resident anti-westerner/troll/wannabe jihadist mentioned, rather than any particular future event. Personally, I suspect we could take out North Korea's launch capability at this time (and without using nukes), but not a year from now (since they're working on ballistic missile submarines, too). Guarantee that nothing gets launched by them and hits its target? No, but worse would be to accept that they can hold us hostage. To get the Chinese out of the way, all we'd have to do is rattle North Korea into starting a conflict, and be maximally ready (we aren't, quite) to deal with it. China has said that if the North starts it, they'll stay neutral. Seoul is probably going to be in ruins if it happens, the North has enough conventional artillery (albeit old and decrepit) targeting Seoul. I hope the South has a darn good evacuation plan, as if such a thing ever could work for a large city. But I suspect that to be rid of the constant threat, they (although never those most directly affected, of course) would not be altogether unhappy to trade 100K or so for that. It's been a few years since I retired; before that, I knew more than most what's actually going on. And I haven't forgotten what correction (or attention to available but neglected details) can be applied to generally available news to get a more complete picture. So yes, what I suggest is indeed risky, but IMH(and reasonably informed)O substantially less risky than just de-escalating and making nice-nice noises that have never before yielded positive change. |
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Post by stephenswinkler on Dec 9, 2017 17:33:38 GMT -5
Number one, the people of America are captive of evil rulers and they are all conservative Republicans. Number two, Donald Trump is a psycho and everyone of Trump voters should be ashamed of themselves. May Allah administer the most sizzling punishment upon all of you. Number three, if you disagree with someone, you called them a troll. How ignorant can you be? I'm a teacher, not a troll! Number four, I'm a jihadist, there is no wannabe here, I'm proud to be a jihadist! I do not apologize for it and I do not deny it. Incidentally, unlike someone of you like beachguy for example, I use my real name and my own picture. I do not hide behind some cartoon character and use a fake name. I do not feel I need to hide from any of you, because I'm not a coward. Just do a Google search on me. What you see is what you get.
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Post by Socal Fan on Dec 9, 2017 20:02:17 GMT -5
I'm a jihadist, there is no wannabe here, I'm proud to be a jihadist! I appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness. A few questions: 1. Who are the specific targets of your jihad? 2. Do you support violence to achieve your ends? 3. How did you come to be a jihadist and how long have you been one? |
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gordy
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Posts: 246
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Post by gordy on Dec 9, 2017 21:06:33 GMT -5
I'm referring to what happened in the past at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that our resident anti-westerner/troll/wannabe jihadist mentioned, rather than any particular future event. Personally, I suspect we could take out North Korea's launch capability at this time (and without using nukes), but not a year from now (since they're working on ballistic missile submarines, too). Guarantee that nothing gets launched by them and hits its target? No, but worse would be to accept that they can hold us hostage. To get the Chinese out of the way, all we'd have to do is rattle North Korea into starting a conflict, and be maximally ready (we aren't, quite) to deal with it. China has said that if the North starts it, they'll stay neutral. Seoul is probably going to be in ruins if it happens, the North has enough conventional artillery (albeit old and decrepit) targeting Seoul. I hope the South has a darn good evacuation plan, as if such a thing ever could work for a large city. But I suspect that to be rid of the constant threat, they (although never those most directly affected, of course) would not be altogether unhappy to trade 100K or so for that. It's been a few years since I retired; before that, I knew more than most what's actually going on. And I haven't forgotten what correction (or attention to available but neglected details) can be applied to generally available news to get a more complete picture. So yes, what I suggest is indeed risky, but IMH(and reasonably informed)O substantially less risky than just de-escalating and making nice-nice noises that have never before yielded positive change. I can agree with your rebuttal that China would stay neutral if N. Korea started a conflict and it was non-nuclear. However, I don't trust that chubby little rutabaga to keep his fingers off the button. What would the US response be if a nuke or two were sent to S. Korea and perhaps Guam? Would there be a nuclear response in return? If so would China still sit back hoping that no nuclear fallout came their way?
N Korea will continue to ignore Trump and his threats regarding his nuclear deterrent program. Trump is either going need to chew his tongue or respond with military action. That means the US will initiate something in order to show the chubby little rutabaga the errors of his ways. That would open the door to China and Russia to choose to respond to a neighboring communist country. Would the rutabaga go nuclear if he felt his butt being whipped? This is the real crux of the matter......who will blink first .......both need to save face.
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