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Post by BOGC on Apr 20, 2020 2:42:53 GMT -5
I'll take our zombies over your non-freedom, thanks. Been there. Nice for an inconspicuous 16 y/o to be able to walk from Plittersdorf to Siegburg safely at midnight (back in the mid 70's, anyway) (about 14 km or 9 miles, either through the city or through more isolated spots, done it both ways when I missed the last streetcar). But not worth giving up the freedom to be an armed a-hole, as long as said a-hole doesn't actually commit a crime. Indeed, if it were my call, I'd say everyone should carry all the time, if they're willing. That way the crazies would be outnumbered. Not caring if there was an occasional bloodbath, it'd at least be small and quick, and innocent blood is ALWAYS part of the cost of liberty, one way or the other. Moreover, I think there should be far less government; more than anarchy, but not much more. edit: the police are no use for self-defense. The courts have said they don't have to be. And it takes them anywhere from 3 minutes to 30 minutes or more to show up, and then they won't know good guy from bad guy right away. That would be true even if the bad guy only had a sword or a crossbow. edit 2: although men are more violent...Lorena Bobbitt bobbed John's thing right off, and threw it out on the street. He was lucky it was found and could be reattached. Maybe he deserved it, but ouch. So don't assume the good and bad or the crazy are always the same groups, they're not; sometimes it's not even so clear which is which. And until something happens, it doesn't always need to be clear. edit 3: 2017 Texas church shooting, gun free zone. 26 dead, not counting the shooter (also died). The shooter was already forbidden to own firearms or ammo, but there had been a paperwork screwup. Shooting spree lasted eleven minutes. 2019, another Texas church shooting, armed private security present. Two dead, not counting the shooter (also died). That was over in about 4 seconds. While I prefer neither, that's impossible - there's always ways with or without firearms (poison gas like in Japan, homemade explosives like in Oklahoma City, etc). Of the two scenarios, I prefer the 2nd.
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Post by Guest 5 on Apr 20, 2020 7:24:15 GMT -5
Great news for Americans that these folks are fighting for their right to survive and to not be ordered around by a bunch of bureaucrats who are enjoying their "authority" way too much.
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Post by eulenspiegel on Apr 20, 2020 11:01:46 GMT -5
Great news for Americans that these folks are fighting for their right to survive and to not be ordered around by a bunch of bureaucrats who are enjoying their "authority" way too much. But very likely in a few weeks desperately calling for help...is no problem...so if they want to die ...let them die...no help...no praying...just survival of the fittest...
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Post by eulenspiegel on Apr 20, 2020 11:03:24 GMT -5
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Post by eulenspiegel on Apr 20, 2020 11:05:20 GMT -5
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Post by 1 Guest on Apr 20, 2020 12:54:03 GMT -5
Great news for Americans that these folks are fighting for their right to survive and to not be ordered around by a bunch of bureaucrats who are enjoying their "authority" way too much. But very likely in a few weeks desperately calling for help...is no problem...so if they want to die ...let them die...no help...no praying...just survival of the fittest...
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Post by Socal Fan on Apr 20, 2020 15:59:29 GMT -5
Models initially gave U.S. fatality estimates of over 2 million. Now the estimates are 60 thousand or less. At the beginning of a pandemic, very little is known of the disease so models can be way off. But the problem is that if you wait until medicine knows a lot about the disease and can produce accurate models, it's too late. Singapore, HK, Taiwan and Korea acted early, even before much was known about the disease. Americans (and Europeans) chose to wait for better models before acting. That decision has cost 40,000 American lives so far (and rising). Unfortunately, I see the exact same thing happening with climate change.
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Post by 1 Guest on Apr 20, 2020 16:07:32 GMT -5
Models initially gave U.S. fatality estimates of over 2 million. Now the estimates are 60 thousand or less. At the beginning of a pandemic, very little is known of the disease so models can be way off. But the problem is that if you wait until medicine knows a lot about the disease and can produce accurate models, it's too late. Singapore, HK, Taiwan and Korea acted early, even before much was known about the disease. Americans (and Europeans) chose to wait for better models before acting. That decision has cost 40,000 American lives so far (and rising). Unfortunately, I see the exact same thing happening with climate change. Did Singapore, HK, Taiwan and Korea have as much international travel coming in as NYC did? NYC has 2 major airports very close to each other? When did they stop travel from China and Europe? As far as climate change is concerned, those countries and China are the countries that cause the pollution, not the US.
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Post by BOGC on Apr 20, 2020 16:08:46 GMT -5
Models initially gave U.S. fatality estimates of over 2 million. Now the estimates are 60 thousand or less. At the beginning of a pandemic, very little is known of the disease so models can be way off. But the problem is that if you wait until medicine knows a lot about the disease and can produce accurate models, it's too late. Singapore, HK, Taiwan and Korea acted early, even before much was known about the disease. Americans (and Europeans) chose to wait for better models before acting. That decision has cost 40,000 American lives so far (and rising). Unfortunately, I see the exact same thing happening with climate change. That is not remotely provable, and in any event we don't have the means to act as quickly. We don't track large numbers our own citizens routinely, don't have the federal resources to follow up at that scale, and many of us would not tolerate intrusive containment measures. If I thought I was being tracked (by government - the phone company knows regardless) with my cell phone, I'd leave it at home, take my watch instead, and turn its cellular service off when I didn't want to be tracked; I could always check for voicemail later. Given preliminary evidence of MASSIVE numbers of asymptomatic carriers and the impossibility of testing everyone in less time than a vaccine will take to deploy, except for keeping hospitals from being overwhelmed, I doubt that anything we could have done differently would have changed the numbers much. Sooner or later, everyone will either be exposed or vaccinated. edit: and large-scale prevention of exposure cannot be prolonged much more lest the economic damage and closings quite literally kill more than the virus. Quarantine the identifiable vulnerable and let everyone else loose with some distancing to continue (densely occupied facilities at perhaps 1/2 to 1/4 density), while continuing to improve the accurate identification of the vulnerable.
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Post by 1 Guest on Apr 20, 2020 16:14:18 GMT -5
At the beginning of a pandemic, very little is known of the disease so models can be way off. But the problem is that if you wait until medicine knows a lot about the disease and can produce accurate models, it's too late. Singapore, HK, Taiwan and Korea acted early, even before much was known about the disease. Americans (and Europeans) chose to wait for better models before acting. That decision has cost 40,000 American lives so far (and rising). Unfortunately, I see the exact same thing happening with climate change. That is not remotely provable, and in any event we don't have the means to act as quickly. We don't track large numbers our own citizens routinely, don't have the federal resources to follow up at that scale, and many of us would not tolerate intrusive containment measures. If I thought I was being tracked (by government - the phone company knows regardless) with my cell phone, I'd leave it at home, take my watch instead, and turn its cellular service off when I didn't want to be tracked; I could always check for voicemail later. Given preliminary evidence of MASSIVE numbers of asymptomatic carriers and the impossibility of testing everyone in less time than a vaccine will take to deploy, except for keeping hospitals from being overwhelmed, I doubt that anything we could have done differently would have changed the numbers much. Sooner or later, everyone will either be exposed or vaccinated. A few years ago Dr. Fauci, along with Gates, predicted that this would happen during the Trump administration, yet when it did happen, Fauci, along with the WHO, downplayed it. Why? Gotta push those vaccines!!! And testing everyone would not only be impossible, unlike Singapore and HK we have a few more citizens, it wouldn't prove anything. I could test negative today and become infected tomorrow.
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Post by BOGC on Apr 20, 2020 16:22:06 GMT -5
That is not remotely provable, and in any event we don't have the means to act as quickly. We don't track large numbers our own citizens routinely, don't have the federal resources to follow up at that scale, and many of us would not tolerate intrusive containment measures. If I thought I was being tracked (by government - the phone company knows regardless) with my cell phone, I'd leave it at home, take my watch instead, and turn its cellular service off when I didn't want to be tracked; I could always check for voicemail later. Given preliminary evidence of MASSIVE numbers of asymptomatic carriers and the impossibility of testing everyone in less time than a vaccine will take to deploy, except for keeping hospitals from being overwhelmed, I doubt that anything we could have done differently would have changed the numbers much. Sooner or later, everyone will either be exposed or vaccinated. A few years ago Dr. Fauci, along with Gates, predicted that this would happen during the Trump administration, yet when it did happen, Fauci, along with the WHO, downplayed it. Why? Gotta push those vaccines!!! And testing everyone would not only be impossible, unlike Singapore and HK we have a few more citizens, it wouldn't prove anything. I could test negative today and become infected tomorrow. Vaccines aren't perfect*, but they aren't a conspiracy either; they do work, if with varying effectiveness on microorganisms that mutate as fast as the flu, given the length of the production cycle. Nor are they hugely profitable, compared to drugs that treat but neither prevent nor cure, and must be taken much more frequently than vaccines. edit: you're right about testing though; magic by testing could only happen if not only everyone could be tested, but everyone could be tested frequently - not remotely possible in the foreseeable future. However, a statistically significant sample might be possible, which could inform which precautions were effective vs ineffective, contribute to understanding of who is vulnerable, etc. * nothing is 100.00% free of problems or side-effects, but most of those alleged are quite unproven. And the people that refuse them on grounds of belief? Well, fine, but homeschool your kids then, don't put your little disease spreaders out among sensible people.
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Post by Guest 5 on Apr 20, 2020 20:21:06 GMT -5
But very likely in a few weeks desperately calling for help...is no problem...so if they want to die ...let them die...no help...no praying...just survival of the fittest... Looks like good ol' Andrea has her jackbooted thugs ready to clamp down on any citizens that demand a normal life
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Post by 1 Guest on Apr 20, 2020 20:31:40 GMT -5
Looks like good ol' Andrea has her jackbooted thugs ready to clamp down on any citizens that demand a normal life But as eulenspiegel said of the peaceful American protestors: "But very likely in a few weeks desperately calling for help...is no problem...so if they want to die ...let them die...no help...no praying...just survival of the fittest..."
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Post by eulenspiegel on Apr 20, 2020 20:47:18 GMT -5
Looks like good ol' Andrea has her jackbooted thugs ready to clamp down on any citizens that demand a normal life But as eulenspiegel said of the peaceful American protestors: "But very likely in a few weeks desperately calling for help...is no problem...so if they want to die ...let them die...no help...no praying...just survival of the fittest..." Yes, if they want to die...but the biggest problem today are some politicians here ...IKEA was entitled to open in NRW.. very likely the numbers of infection will explode... We had the chance to slow down the numbers so far...that a relatively normal live would habe been possible...but it‘s in very big danger now. Merkel was not amused ...about some decisions by her collegues. Very likely in 14 days disaster starts.
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Post by Guest 5 on Apr 20, 2020 20:48:21 GMT -5
Looks like you and the rest of the bureaucrats can only hope this happens
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