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Post by donkey on Jun 5, 2023 16:35:46 GMT -5
Since you asked, just saying in my opinion is a fantastical claim with no convincing evidence to support it at all. So you would say it isn't a fantastical claim at all that there was suddenly a Big Bang somewhere in the universe and all types of matter spewed out, one of those pieces being earth? Then a one celled creature magically appeared and developed into all sorts of various different sea and land dwelling creatures, flying creatures, insects, etc, millions of species with fantastic and amazing shapes, colors and abilities? Sure, that sounds realistic. LOL! My own opinion: I believe a higher power, or more than one, that is very far beyond our simple understanding, at some point had a significant creative influence on this planet. Where he or they came from, I don't know. I suspect possibly from a completely different dimension, with our dream world when we sleep being a potential bridge to that dimension. I think to our minute understanding, we are living in a puzzle with a lot of missing pieces, but at one time, there was a definite whole picture, and still is if all of the pieces could be recovered. So I will honestly say I don't know for certain, but I do think God exists, God being a superior power to us. But I don't think he created all of the universes and then retired after creating earth to sit on a cloud and answer human requests for the rest of his days. Not sure where that came from. Huge, usually fatal flaw in logic to, when you don't know the scientific explanation for something, to then jump to the extraordinary conclusion that, "a supreme being must have created it". Huge leap in logic. As for the Universe, the galaxy, the solar system, the planets...they all formed and evolved over extraordinary amounts of time...billions of years. Same with life here on earth. Life evolves...scientific, measurable, observable fact...given enough time. As for us on earth, we are a drop of water in a huge, almost endless sea. We are completely insignificant. As for a god, while you can't rule one out, the science doesn't point that way at all. Going back to the thunderstorm example. Cavemen didnt know what caused volcanoes to erupt, or tstorms to develop, or earthquakes, etc. So they assigned their source to angry gods. Its known as the God Gap. Then, over time, as science figures more and more things out...the god explanation gets pushed further and further out. The Big Bang cause is the ultimate God Gap. |
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Post by Disappointed on Jun 5, 2023 17:01:23 GMT -5
As for a god, while you can't rule one out, the science doesn't point that way at all. But who, or what, put the laws of science in motion? Or the laws of physics, mathematics, logic? The beauty of nature, art, music? The wonder of the human body, reason, conscience? All accidental? Well, you believe what you want. I'm not buying that we're all just insignificant accidental tourists. However, as I admit, I don't have all of the answers and neither does anyone else. |
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Post by donkey on Jun 5, 2023 17:09:24 GMT -5
As for a god, while you can't rule one out, the science doesn't point that way at all. But who, or what, put the laws of science in motion? Or the laws of physics, mathematics, logic? The beauty of nature, art, music? The wonder of the human body, reason, conscience? All accidental? Well, you believe what you want. I'm not buying that we're all just insignificant accidental tourists. However, as I admit, I don't have all of the answers and neither does anyone else. Nobody knows for sure...there is no way to know for sure. That's why, while I'm skeptical, I don't claim to know for sure either. In my opinion, most adults believe it because they want or need to believe it. In your case, I note you didnt say you think there is probably is a god. You just flat out say you think there is a god. It's simply not knowable, so it's interesting when people say they know for sure. And we are very insignificant...watch this. "There, on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam." lol |
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Post by Disappointed on Jun 5, 2023 17:45:23 GMT -5
And we are very insignificant...watch this. "There, on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam." lol Insignificant to whom? Visit a lonely senior at a care home. Sponsor a child. I can guarantee you would not be insignificant to them, like you are to Jackie. lol. |
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Post by donkey on Jun 5, 2023 18:07:52 GMT -5
And we are very insignificant...watch this. "There, on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam." lol Insignificant to whom? Visit a lonely senior at a care home. Sponsor a child. I can guarantee you would not be insignificant to them, like you are to Jackie. lol. lol...insignificant to anything outside of our mote of dust on a sunbeam existence. Sure, a microscopic bed bug is significant to other microscopic bed bugs, but outside of their microscopic world...irrelevant. ROFL...Jackie's fans are not insignificant to her, even less now since there are so few of them left. Nice transition back to being on topic though.  |
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Post by Heaven is Real on Jun 7, 2023 9:07:53 GMT -5
it always comes down to the ol' faith based argument...which is of course circular logic that gets you nowhere. Faith is not a blind leap in the dark, like you seem to think it is. Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The Greek word for "substance" is hupostasis. It is a scientific term, the opposite of hypothesis or theory. It is that which rests upon facts. In chemistry it would be the chemical which settles at the bottom of the test tube after you have made an experiment. Dr. A. T. Robertson translates substance as "title deed." What is the title deed? What is the substance? It is the Word of God, my friend. If your faith does not rest upon the Word of God, it is not biblical faith at all. It has to rest upon what God says. Actually, it means to believe God. The question is whether you believe God or not. Don't come up with the "I've got intellectual problems" excuse, because that won't work. The thing that keeps men from the Word of God is sin. It is sin in your life that keeps you from coming to God. It is the heart that needs to believe — it is "the heart that believeth unto righteousness." When you are ready to give up your sin, the Holy Spirit will make real to you the Word of God. Paul wrote to the Colossian believers, "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding" (Colossians 1:9). To know the will of God is to know the Word of God. He prayed that they might know the Word of God. The Greek word for "knowledge" which Paul used is epignosis. There were Gnostics in that day who professed to have super knowledge. Paul told the Colossians that he wanted them to have super knowledge which was genuine by knowing that the Bible is the Word of God, and he believed that the Holy Spirit would make it real to them. Therefore faith rests upon the Word of God. Our dogmatism comes from the Book. That is the reason the writer to the Hebrews said in Hebrews 10:39, "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." There are only two ways to go. Either you are going backwards, or you are going to go forwards. Anything that is alive cannot stand still. Out yonder in the forest there is regression and deterioration taking place, but there is also growth and development. Nothing alive out there is standing still — it cannot. "The evidence of things not seen." In the Greek the word is elegchos. It is a legal term meaning "evidence that is accepted for conviction." When I was studying classical Greek in college, I observed that this word is used about twenty-three times in Plato's account of the trial of Socrates. Evidence is something you take into court to prove your case. Faith is not a leap in the dark. Faith is not a "hope so." Faith is substance and evidence — substance for a scientific mind, and evidence for a legal mind. If you really want to believe, you can believe. You can believe a whole lot of foolish things, but God doesn't want you to do that. He wants your faith to rest upon the Word of God. |
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Post by Heaven is Real on Jun 7, 2023 9:12:52 GMT -5
That is a quote from Dr. J Vernon Mcgee.
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Post by Heaven is Real on Jun 7, 2023 9:30:01 GMT -5
Here's a story about Brown Trucking Company in Georgia who used to give polygraph tests to their job applicants. However, in part of the test the operator asked, “Do you believe in God?” In every instance when a professing atheist answered “No,” the test showed the person to be lying.
Dr. Adrian Rogers used to tell this same story to illustrate Romans 1:19 and it was his conclusion that “there is no such thing anywhere on earth as a true atheist. If a man says he doesn’t believe in God, then he is lying. God has put his moral consciousness into every man’s heart, and a man has to try to kick his conscience to death to say he doesn’t believe in God.”
Dr. Rogers also notes, “The fool is treating God like he would treat food he did not desire in a cafeteria line. ‘No broccoli for me!’ ” In other words, the fool just doesn’t want God in his life and is a practical atheist, but not a theoretical atheist.
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Post by Heaven is Real on Jun 7, 2023 9:33:06 GMT -5
Here's a quote from Dr. Adrian Rogers:
"Imagine that the end of time has come, the time we call “the final judgment.” Standing before the throne are all those who’ve never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as well as those who did hear and rejected it.
The indictment is given, “For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”
Some say, “Your Honor, we’re not guilty! We never heard the Gospel; we never knew how to be saved. We’re innocent by reason of ignorance.”
Then the Apostle Paul will speak up. He’ll point out, “Your Honor, I will prove they’re not innocent because of ignorance or never had an equal chance. I call two witnesses to testify. Witness number one, take the stand. Give the court your name.”
He says, “My name is Creation.” “You’re the witness that God exists?” “Yes. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath showed it unto them, for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and godhead, so that they are without excuse” (Romans 1:19-20).
Creation testifies, “The Heavens declare the glory of God” Psalm 19:1.
If you have a creation, you have to have a Creator. The Bible says that the Creator “is clearly seen by the things that are made.” When I see a finely tuned piano, I know someone crafted and tuned it. When I see a watch running with precision, I know someone crafted it. When I see a building put together in symmetry, I say, “There is an architect.” When I see this mighty creation, I say, “Creator.” When I see order and system, I say, “Intelligence.” That’s the reason the Bible says, “The fool hath said in his heart, ‘There’s no God’” (Psalm 14:1).
Then Paul will call his second witness.
“My name is Conscience. For when the Gentiles [those who’ve never heard the Gospel], which have not the law,” [Old Testament law], “do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law are a law unto themselves, which show the work of the law written in their hearts; their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another.” Romans 2:14.
Two witnesses all people on earth must face: the outward, objective witness of creation and the inward, subjective witness of conscience. “Unto them” is creation, “in them” is conscience.
Man has a built in knowledge of God. God made man to know, love, serve and have fellowship with Him forever. “Christ is that true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9).
Augustine said, “The soul of man is restless until it rests in God.” You cannot get around the two witnesses. Creation and conscience testify that no matter who you are or where you are, every person has some light.Atheists are not in atheists because of intellectual problems. They’re atheists because of moral problems. It’s not a matter of intelligence. “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.” Romans 1:22
All of us have a God consciousness. It’s not a matter of intellectualism; it’s a matter of morality. “The fool hath said in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1).
An atheist is someone who is uncomfortable with the existence of God, so he says, “If I can get rid of this idea of God, I can get rid of this uncomfortable feeling.”
But he really doesn’t get rid of it—not down deep. He’s like a man who bought a new boomerang and killed himself trying to throw the old one away. The knowledge that God is just there, and the more you try to get rid of it, the more you know subconsciously God exists, because deep in your heart, conscience speaks."
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Post by donkey on Jun 7, 2023 9:35:31 GMT -5
it always comes down to the ol' faith based argument...which is of course circular logic that gets you nowhere. Faith is not a blind leap in the dark, like you seem to think it is. Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The Greek word for "substance" is hupostasis. It is a scientific term, the opposite of hypothesis or theory. It is that which rests upon facts. In chemistry it would be the chemical which settles at the bottom of the test tube after you have made an experiment. Dr. A. T. Robertson translates substance as "title deed." What is the title deed? What is the substance? It is the Word of God, my friend. If your faith does not rest upon the Word of God, it is not biblical faith at all. It has to rest upon what God says. Actually, it means to believe God. The question is whether you believe God or not. Don't come up with the "I've got intellectual problems" excuse, because that won't work. The thing that keeps men from the Word of God is sin. It is sin in your life that keeps you from coming to God. It is the heart that needs to believe — it is "the heart that believeth unto righteousness." When you are ready to give up your sin, the Holy Spirit will make real to you the Word of God. Paul wrote to the Colossian believers, "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding" (Colossians 1:9). To know the will of God is to know the Word of God. He prayed that they might know the Word of God. The Greek word for "knowledge" which Paul used is epignosis. There were Gnostics in that day who professed to have super knowledge. Paul told the Colossians that he wanted them to have super knowledge which was genuine by knowing that the Bible is the Word of God, and he believed that the Holy Spirit would make it real to them. Therefore faith rests upon the Word of God. Our dogmatism comes from the Book. That is the reason the writer to the Hebrews said in Hebrews 10:39, "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." There are only two ways to go. Either you are going backwards, or you are going to go forwards. Anything that is alive cannot stand still. Out yonder in the forest there is regression and deterioration taking place, but there is also growth and development. Nothing alive out there is standing still — it cannot. "The evidence of things not seen." In the Greek the word is elegchos. It is a legal term meaning "evidence that is accepted for conviction." When I was studying classical Greek in college, I observed that this word is used about twenty-three times in Plato's account of the trial of Socrates. Evidence is something you take into court to prove your case. Faith is not a leap in the dark. Faith is not a "hope so." Faith is substance and evidence — substance for a scientific mind, and evidence for a legal mind. If you really want to believe, you can believe. You can believe a whole lot of foolish things, but God doesn't want you to do that. He wants your faith to rest upon the Word of God. No offense, but what a bunch of garbage saying nothing substantive. If you want to follow a religion or believe in God, all the power to you. But if you want to engage in a debate on the existence of a god, it always comes back to "faith", which is the belief in something for which there is no direct evidence...aka intellectual suicide, or "something can't come from nothing, so there must be conscious creator", which is of course a huge fallacy and assumption that would get torn apart in any logic class or scientific debate. No human being can possibly know if there is a god, and if they say they do they are either a liar or have made the decision to jump off the intellectual cliff. Some need that crutch to help them get through life, others just want to believe due to fear of human mortality. Civilizations believed in gods all throughout history, back mostly in times when civilizations were scientifically illiterate and high superstitiious. They used gods to explain things they couldn't explain scientifically yet, like nature disasters, and they used them provide some sort of moral compass from which to live life and run societies, aka religions. It blows my mind that people in 1st world countries in 2023 still believe in gods...it's quite bizarre. You can't prove a negative, that something doesn't exist...especially something claimed to not exist in our physical world....you know, things you can measure and see. lol But while it's possible there is a conscious supreme being, there is no direct evidence from which to make such a claim. Only the desire to believe such a thing and massive assumptions. |
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Post by Heaven is Real on Jun 7, 2023 9:54:19 GMT -5
Faith is not a blind leap in the dark, like you seem to think it is. Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The Greek word for "substance" is hupostasis. It is a scientific term, the opposite of hypothesis or theory. It is that which rests upon facts. In chemistry it would be the chemical which settles at the bottom of the test tube after you have made an experiment. Dr. A. T. Robertson translates substance as "title deed." What is the title deed? What is the substance? It is the Word of God, my friend. If your faith does not rest upon the Word of God, it is not biblical faith at all. It has to rest upon what God says. Actually, it means to believe God. The question is whether you believe God or not. Don't come up with the "I've got intellectual problems" excuse, because that won't work. The thing that keeps men from the Word of God is sin. It is sin in your life that keeps you from coming to God. It is the heart that needs to believe — it is "the heart that believeth unto righteousness." When you are ready to give up your sin, the Holy Spirit will make real to you the Word of God. Paul wrote to the Colossian believers, "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding" (Colossians 1:9). To know the will of God is to know the Word of God. He prayed that they might know the Word of God. The Greek word for "knowledge" which Paul used is epignosis. There were Gnostics in that day who professed to have super knowledge. Paul told the Colossians that he wanted them to have super knowledge which was genuine by knowing that the Bible is the Word of God, and he believed that the Holy Spirit would make it real to them. Therefore faith rests upon the Word of God. Our dogmatism comes from the Book. That is the reason the writer to the Hebrews said in Hebrews 10:39, "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." There are only two ways to go. Either you are going backwards, or you are going to go forwards. Anything that is alive cannot stand still. Out yonder in the forest there is regression and deterioration taking place, but there is also growth and development. Nothing alive out there is standing still — it cannot. "The evidence of things not seen." In the Greek the word is elegchos. It is a legal term meaning "evidence that is accepted for conviction." When I was studying classical Greek in college, I observed that this word is used about twenty-three times in Plato's account of the trial of Socrates. Evidence is something you take into court to prove your case. Faith is not a leap in the dark. Faith is not a "hope so." Faith is substance and evidence — substance for a scientific mind, and evidence for a legal mind. If you really want to believe, you can believe. You can believe a whole lot of foolish things, but God doesn't want you to do that. He wants your faith to rest upon the Word of God. No offense, but what a bunch of garbage saying nothing substantive. If you want to follow a religion or believe in God, all the power to you. But if you want to engage in a debate on the existence of a god, it always comes back to "faith", which is the belief in something for which there is no direct evidence...aka intellectual suicide, or "something can't come from nothing, so there must be conscious creator", which is of course a huge fallacy and assumption that would get torn apart in any logic class or scientific debate. No human being can possibly know if there is a god, and if they say they do they are either a liar or have made the decision to jump off the intellectual cliff. Some need that crutch to help them get through life, others just want to believe due to fear of human mortality. Civilizations believed in gods all throughout history, back mostly in times when civilizations were scientifically illiterate and high superstitiious. They used gods to explain things they couldn't explain scientifically yet, like nature disasters, and they used them provide some sort of moral compass from which to live life and run societies, aka religions. It blows my mind that people in 1st world countries in 2023 still believe in gods...it's quite bizarre. You can't prove a negative, that something doesn't exist...especially something claimed to not exist in our physical world....you know, things you can measure and see. lol But while it's possible there is a conscious supreme being, there is no direct evidence from which to make such a claim. Only the desire to believe such a thing and massive assumptions. Your problem is not intellectual but sin, you don't want to give up the sin in your life, it is sin in your life that keeps you from coming to God. billygraham.org/answer/since-no-one-can-prove-god-is-real-why-doesnt-he-reveal-himself/ |
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Post by Heaven is Real on Jun 7, 2023 9:58:46 GMT -5
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Post by Colt46 on Jun 7, 2023 10:01:30 GMT -5
This just doesn’t happen, it’s not the Big Bang theory!
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Post by Heaven is Real on Jun 7, 2023 10:18:27 GMT -5
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Post by donkey on Jun 7, 2023 10:49:32 GMT -5
No offense, but what a bunch of garbage saying nothing substantive. If you want to follow a religion or believe in God, all the power to you. But if you want to engage in a debate on the existence of a god, it always comes back to "faith", which is the belief in something for which there is no direct evidence...aka intellectual suicide, or "something can't come from nothing, so there must be conscious creator", which is of course a huge fallacy and assumption that would get torn apart in any logic class or scientific debate. No human being can possibly know if there is a god, and if they say they do they are either a liar or have made the decision to jump off the intellectual cliff. Some need that crutch to help them get through life, others just want to believe due to fear of human mortality. Civilizations believed in gods all throughout history, back mostly in times when civilizations were scientifically illiterate and high superstitiious. They used gods to explain things they couldn't explain scientifically yet, like nature disasters, and they used them provide some sort of moral compass from which to live life and run societies, aka religions. It blows my mind that people in 1st world countries in 2023 still believe in gods...it's quite bizarre. You can't prove a negative, that something doesn't exist...especially something claimed to not exist in our physical world....you know, things you can measure and see. lol But while it's possible there is a conscious supreme being, there is no direct evidence from which to make such a claim. Only the desire to believe such a thing and massive assumptions. Your problem is not intellectual but sin, you don't want to give up the sin in your life, it is sin in your life that keeps you from coming to God. billygraham.org/answer/since-no-one-can-prove-god-is-real-why-doesnt-he-reveal-himself/ROFL...yeah, that's it. Although, I don't do much "sinning"...I'm pretty straight laced. lol |
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