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Post by Socal Fan on Jul 23, 2024 9:00:52 GMT -5
You are the one always spouting freedom and liberty. What is more fundamental to freedom and liberty than the right for anyone to do what they want to with their body? But it's not the mother who is being ripped apart , alive, so she can be pulled through a narrow canal. Absolutely right. It is the fetus, a parasitic growth attached to (and part of) the mother's body, that is being removed. Freedom and liberty give me the right to remove anything attached to (and part of) my body.
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Rightwing Conspiracy Theorist
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Post by Rightwing Conspiracy Theorist on Jul 23, 2024 10:42:18 GMT -5
But it's not the mother who is being ripped apart , alive, so she can be pulled through a narrow canal. Absolutely right. It is the fetus, a parasitic growth attached to (and part of) the mother's body, that is being removed. Freedom and liberty give me the right to remove anything attached to (and part of) my body. How can people demean human life to that extent? Its a mark of a fallen society when no value is attached to life. Getting an abortion is an unnatural act of any mammal or living animal.
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Rightwing Conspiracy Theorist
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Post by Rightwing Conspiracy Theorist on Jul 23, 2024 10:44:15 GMT -5
Yes, a statistically tiny number of people have bad reactions to any vaccine. Yes, and the kind of old „Astrazeneca“ had more bad reactions..especially by young females Btw. we all have to be thankful..that there were Covid vaccines..normally it lasts up to 10 years or longer to create, produce a vaccine..millions and millions would have died..or far more seriously ill. Geez, I wonder how so many unvaccinated people got through the pandemic.
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Post by donkey on Jul 23, 2024 10:47:05 GMT -5
Yes, and the kind of old „Astrazeneca“ had more bad reactions..especially by young females Btw. we all have to be thankful..that there were Covid vaccines..normally it lasts up to 10 years or longer to create, produce a vaccine..millions and millions would have died..or far more seriously ill. Geez, I wonder how so many unvaccinated people got through the pandemic. A lot, because it mostly just killed the elderly, the obese, and people with other serious pre-conditions. But it also killed a lot of them as they died before the vaccines was available.
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Post by Rightwing Conspiracy Theorist on Jul 23, 2024 11:29:40 GMT -5
Too bad the parents of those advocating unlimited abortion did not exercise that "right". You are the one always spouting freedom and liberty. What is more fundamental to freedom and liberty than the right for anyone to do what they want to with their body? The parents of those advocating unlimited abortion did not exercise that right. They obviously did the right thing. Because they produced offspring who fought against those those who want to remove the right of people to do what they want their own bodies. People don't have the freedom to do whatever they want. The idea of liberty is that people can behave in any manner they wish as long as their behavior does not harm another. In addition to laws that protect liberty, there are laws that prevent injuring others without consequences. American society was built on this concept.
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Post by Socal Fan on Jul 23, 2024 11:33:42 GMT -5
Absolutely right. It is the fetus, a parasitic growth attached to (and part of) the mother's body, that is being removed. Freedom and liberty give me the right to remove anything attached to (and part of) my body. How can people demean human life to that extent? Its a mark of a fallen society when no value is attached to life. Getting an abortion is an unnatural act of any mammal or living animal. How can people demean human life to that extent?It is in no way demeaning human life to prioritize freedom and liberty higher. Its a mark of a fallen society when no value is attached to life.Everyone attaches great value to life. But many of us attach even greater value to freedom and liberty. Getting an abortion is an unnatural act of any mammal or living animal.By definition any act or creation of human beings is unnatural. I make no apologies for the acts and creations of human beings.
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Post by Rightwing Conspiracy Theorist on Jul 23, 2024 11:48:47 GMT -5
How can people demean human life to that extent? Its a mark of a fallen society when no value is attached to life. Getting an abortion is an unnatural act of any mammal or living animal. How can people demean human life to that extent?It is in no way demeaning human life to prioritize freedom and liberty higher. Its a mark of a fallen society when no value is attached to life.Everyone attaches great value to life. But many of us attach even greater value to freedom and liberty.Getting an abortion is an unnatural act of any mammal or living animal.By definition any act or creation of human beings is unnatural. I make no apologies for the acts and creations of human beings. Most everyone places value on their own lives, but not necessarily on the lives of others. Mao and Lenin showed an immense disregard for the lives of others. They also placed no value on freedom and liberty. We need to pay attention to slippery slopes. A human building a house is as natural as a beaver building a dam or a bird building a nest. An individual who engages in eating, sleeping or breathing is acting in a completely natural way. Engaging in war to aggressively conquer another country, tribe, etc is unnatural, while engaging in war to defend one's country, tribe, etc. is natural.
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Post by Socal Fan on Jul 23, 2024 13:06:05 GMT -5
The idea of liberty is that people can behave in any manner they wish as long as their behavior does not harm another. In addition to laws that protect liberty, there are laws that prevent injuring others without consequences. As you point out, laws exist to protect others. But the fetus is not an "other". It is inside the woman, like any other organ. It is totally dependent on the woman, like any other organ. It is part of the woman, like any other organ. It is not an "other". Which explains the scenario, during a birth emergency, where it may be medically necessary to sacrifice the life of the fetus to preserve the life of the mother. In this situation, it is the mother's decision and the mother has every right to make that tragic decision. The point is not that the fetus's life has no value - rather the point is that the rights of the mother supersede the rights of the fetus. One might argue that the difference between an organ and a fetus is that the fetus can develop into a human being. It is pre-human. Human beings have rights under the law. Pre-humans have few if any rights. And whatever right a pre-human may have is superseded by the right of the woman carrying the pre-human. I actually agree with the Supreme Court that only a fetus capable of independent life (typically at 23-24 weeks) is entitled to legal protection. But even in that case, the mother may abort if her life is at risk. In the case of a conflict of rights, the rights of the human supersede the rights of the pre-human. What I find appalling is that Catholics (and other pro-life religions) think they have the right to tell non-Catholics what is right and what is wrong. If a Catholic chooses not to abort, that is their right. But they want to force their religious beliefs on me, a non-Catholic, and I find that unacceptable.
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Post by 1 Guest on Jul 23, 2024 13:14:22 GMT -5
But it's not the mother who is being ripped apart , alive, so she can be pulled through a narrow canal. Absolutely right. It is the fetus, a parasitic growth attached to (and part of) the mother's body, that is being removed. Freedom and liberty give me the right to remove anything attached to (and part of) my body. That parasythic growth attached to her body has a human head, brain, eyes, ears, nose, mouth, functioning nervous system a beating heart and functioning organs, recoils when being attacked, and feels the pain of being torn into pieces, alive. And at some point is viable outside of the womb. But if it eases the conscience of someone doing that to her child to call it a fetus instead of a baby, good luck with that. She's brutally murdering her child and she knows it.
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Post by 1 Guest on Jul 23, 2024 13:17:11 GMT -5
The idea of liberty is that people can behave in any manner they wish as long as their behavior does not harm another. In addition to laws that protect liberty, there are laws that prevent injuring others without consequences. As you point out, laws exist to protect others. But the fetus is not an "other". It is inside the woman, like any other organ. It is totally dependent on the woman, like any other organ. It is part of the woman, like any other organ. It is not an "other". Which explains the scenario, during a birth emergency, where it may be medically necessary to sacrifice the life of the fetus to preserve the life of the mother. In this situation, it is the mother's decision and the mother has every right to make that tragic decision. The point is not that the fetus's life has no value - rather the point is that the rights of the mother supersede the rights of the fetus. One might argue that the difference between an organ and a fetus is that the fetus can develop into a human being. It is pre-human. Human beings have rights under the law. Pre-humans have few if any rights. And whatever right a pre-human may have is superseded by the right of the woman carrying the pre-human. I actually agree with the Supreme Court that only a fetus capable of independent life (typically at 23-24 weeks) is entitled to legal protection. But even in that case, the mother may abort if her life is at risk. In the case of a conflict of rights, the rights of the human supersede the rights of the pre-human. What I find appalling is that Catholics (and other pro-life religions) think they have the right to tell non-Catholics what is right and what is wrong. If a Catholic chooses not to abort, that is their right. But they want to force their religious beliefs on me, a non-Catholic, and I find that unacceptable. I could be wrong, but I don't know of any other "organ" that looks like a baby, obviously because they're not a baby.
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Post by Socal Fan on Jul 23, 2024 13:38:52 GMT -5
And at some point is viable outside of the womb. Which is why I support abortion prior to viability. But if it eases the conscience of someone doing that to her child to call it a fetus instead of a baby, good luck with that. We all have to live with the consequences of our actions. But your pro-life friends are not so generous. They want to prosecute mothers and doctors for abortions. They seek to build a world full of Catholics. And if it stokes your righteous indignation to call it a baby instead of a fetus, good luck with that. But you might find it helpful to consult a dictionary, at least on occasion.
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Post by Rightwing Conspiracy Theorist on Jul 23, 2024 14:26:59 GMT -5
And at some point is viable outside of the womb. Which is why I support abortion prior to viability. But if it eases the conscience of someone doing that to her child to call it a fetus instead of a baby, good luck with that. We all have to live with the consequences of our actions. But your pro-life friends are not so generous. They want to prosecute mothers and doctors for abortions. They seek to build a world full of Catholics. And if it stokes your righteous indignation to call it a baby instead of a fetus, good luck with that. But you might find it helpful to consult a dictionary, at least on occasion. Even though I consider abortion as murder, women don't need to be prosecuted for having them. If anyone was going to be prosecuted, it should be abortion doctors. Definitions in a dictionary are constructs and made by people. Some people will call an unborn human in the womb a fetus, while others will call it a baby. People often agree or disagree that a definition in a book called a dictionary is an official description of a noun, verb, etc. Some call abortion healthcare, while others call it murder. A Supreme Court justice could not define a woman. Some people define men, who have their junk removed, women. Definitions are not as cut and dry as we would like them to be and definitions that at times can be flawed, don't always need to dictate one's actions.
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Post by 1 Guest on Jul 23, 2024 14:47:46 GMT -5
And at some point is viable outside of the womb. Which is why I support abortion prior to viability. But if it eases the conscience of someone doing that to her child to call it a fetus instead of a baby, good luck with that. We all have to live with the consequences of our actions. But your pro-life friends are not so generous. They want to prosecute mothers and doctors for abortions. They seek to build a world full of Catholics. And if it stokes your righteous indignation to call it a baby instead of a fetus, good luck with that. But you might find it helpful to consult a dictionary, at least on occasion. Unfortunately a lot of psychos want abortion at any time during the pregnancy, and that is murder, no if's, and's or but's. And well before viability, that "fetus" has all of the things that identify it as a human and it will feel pain when chopped up. Oh, and back to a baby being an organ, we have organs in order to stay alive. That's not the case for a baby. And don't put it all on Catholics, plenty of people feel the same way, just as there's plenty of Catholics, like Biden and Pelosi, who have no problem with babies being chopped into pieces. So that Catholic stuff holds no water. It's a matter of decency.
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Post by Socal Fan on Jul 23, 2024 14:54:15 GMT -5
Even though I consider abortion as murder, women don't need to be prosecuted for having them. If anyone was going to be prosecuted, it should be abortion doctors. It doesn't matter whether you prosecute women or doctors or both. In either case, the result is the same: there will be no abortions. And people will be denied their fundamental right to control their bodies. And I will live in a country where I, a non-Catholic, will be forced to serve a Catholic God (or some other pro-life God) that I did not choose. Perhaps the rightwingers got it right after all, maybe I do need to arm myself to protect my rights.
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Post by Rightwing Conspiracy Theorist on Jul 23, 2024 14:54:24 GMT -5
The idea of liberty is that people can behave in any manner they wish as long as their behavior does not harm another. In addition to laws that protect liberty, there are laws that prevent injuring others without consequences. As you point out, laws exist to protect others. But the fetus is not an "other". It is inside the woman, like any other organ. It is totally dependent on the woman, like any other organ. It is part of the woman, like any other organ. It is not an "other". Which explains the scenario, during a birth emergency, where it may be medically necessary to sacrifice the life of the fetus to preserve the life of the mother. In this situation, it is the mother's decision and the mother has every right to make that tragic decision. The point is not that the fetus's life has no value - rather the point is that the rights of the mother supersede the rights of the fetus. One might argue that the difference between an organ and a fetus is that the fetus can develop into a human being. It is pre-human. Human beings have rights under the law. Pre-humans have few if any rights. And whatever right a pre-human may have is superseded by the right of the woman carrying the pre-human. I actually agree with the Supreme Court that only a fetus capable of independent life (typically at 23-24 weeks) is entitled to legal protection. But even in that case, the mother may abort if her life is at risk. In the case of a conflict of rights, the rights of the human supersede the rights of the pre-human. What I find appalling is that Catholics (and other pro-life religions) think they have the right to tell non-Catholics what is right and what is wrong. If a Catholic chooses not to abort, that is their right. But they want to force their religious beliefs on me, a non-Catholic, and I find that unacceptable. That a fetus is not an "other" is your opinion. As I pointed out earlier, many states recognize a fetus as an other. In those states, if someone punches a pregnant woman in the stomach causing a miscarriage, they can be charged with murder. There are situations when a woman's life could be saved by her having an abortion and prolife advocates need to consider those situations very seriously. Diminishing the value of human life, whether through abortion or other means, can be a slippery slope because people often apply the same thinking to unborn and born humans alike. In China, where abortions are plentiful, if a pedestrian is injured by a car, they will unlikely be able to get help from others and are quite often left to die. There is a general culture that fosters the idea that human lives don't matter. It's this type of thinking that often leads to the mass slaughter of populations similar to those that happened during the cultural revolution. Christian groups promote the idea that human life does have value and they promote the idea of equal application of laws to the value of a fetus as to the value of a living being. No law is going to be able to address every exception to the rule, and that's where we've much of the debate stem from.
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