Gun Control

[gordy]

Nov 5, 2017 20:25:50 GMT -5 agog said:

Nov 5, 2017 19:15:30 GMT -5 gordy said:

Another mass shooting in Texas today. It seems that mass shootings in the US are becoming very frequent ......almost a reversion to the old west. The last accurate stats for shootings in the US are from 2012 when 259 shootings were deemed justifiable homicides where as criminal homicides plus suicides plus accidental killings number 29,450 for the same period. IMO and I imagine the majority of citizens in the US and from outside of the US believe that the stats overwhelmingly support the need for gun control. The 2nd Amendment clearly needs to be reviewed and updated for the 21st century. It is totally irrational to hold onto an amendment that was founded in the late 1700's.

Gordy.

Your stats are accurate afaik. They sound right anyway. Your interpretation has a flaw that leads to incorrect analysis.

For the benefit of the mathematically challenged ( ok, me) I'm going to round up your more exact 29,450 total of all shootings to 30,000.

Of the grand total of homicides (where someone dies) fully two thirds are suicides. Suicides are the largest fraction of the total firearm deaths. That's a sad statistic but it reflects more on the hollowness of our society than the perniciousness of firearms. Most of the suicides by firearms are by older White males. Sad. So two thirds of the 30,000 is 20,000. That leaves 10,000.

The next largest fraction of firearm deaths is gang and drug related. Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, MS13 etc. The fraction is one fifth of the 30,000 or 6,000. That's 6,000 out of the 10,000 left after subtracting suicides. These are mostly Black and Latino males between the ages of 15 to 30-35.

We now are left with 4,000 shootings (not all homicides) of which your figures say about 250 are justifiable homicides. Here is where I see a flaw your post. There are many justified shootings that are not homicides because the person shot did not die. One should not assume the remaining 3,750 shootings were not justified. Most of them were indeed justified as self defense, the person shot was not killed. I'm not saying all 3,750 were justified shootings. Many non homicide, non-justified shootings go back to the gangs/other criminals who are notoriously poor shots and indifferent to other people, including children, in the vicinity of the intended target.

I'm sorry that I don't have the exact stats in front of me but if you'd like to dialogue further I will find them and list them here.

If one removes the shootings, both homicide and non, perpetrated by Black and Latino males in the age group I already spoke of. The homicide rate (homicides per 100,000 people) for the U,S, is on par with that of England, Belgium and (dare I say?) Canada.

Firearms are the best self defense device yet developed by man. A pistol on the nightstand has protected many an older person and young mothers from the predations of criminals.

Agog ..... the following stats for 2013 were sourced by the FBI:

- 73,505 non fatal firearm injuries

- 33,636 deaths occurred by firearms

   - 11,206 were criminal homicides

   - 21,175 were suicides

   - 505 were accidental

   - 281 were of undetermined intent

   - 461 were justifiable law enforcement homicide shootings

   - 281 were justifiable citizen homicide shootings

We could look at these stats and perhaps come to some logical conclusion about having some form of gun control ( it is far too late for banning ownership outright ).

- some gun control may have significantly reduced the 21k suicides through some mental screening process,

- some control may have reduced the number of accidental deaths due to lack of training and competence in handling firearms

- considering that only 281 justifiable citizen homicides occurred perhaps because of self defense seems to be a very weak argument for the citizen ownership of guns at 350 million in 2013.

I believe the true reason that gun advocates don't want any type of gun control is because they have a very strong love of owning a deadly weapon and not for some trumped up notion of self defence.

   -

[gordy]

I watch/listen to many different sources except that which you must follow from that blowhard Trump and his Twitter machine. When they finally impeach that nut case you will be lost without the Honest Trumpet all the news that is the news. Fortunately you can always tune into the reruns of Laugh-In.

[jrchico]

News just out. The Texas church gunman was stopped by a Texas citizen that was carrying a gun.

[agog]

Nov 5, 2017 20:34:36 GMT -5 gordy said:

Nov 5, 2017 19:52:07 GMT -5 jrchico said:

I think you are right. We need to change the law to read that everyone in the US that is qualified to carry a gun be required to do so by law. People leaving their guns at home just because they are going to a church or a concert or a school are not much help when the S.H.I.T. hits the fan.

Tis unfortunate that you were born a century and half too late.  You would have fit in with the 1870's Dodge City and Tombstone very well.  Fortunately most every lawless town of the old west sought a more civilized society and saw the benefit of not having people wander freely around the towns and cities carrying guns.  Then came along the NRA

fully supported by white supremacists, KKK, organized crime, wanna-be cowboys and the looney-toons all waving the 2nd amendment created by flintlock carrying politicians holding some fear over past dealings with the British army.

Gordy this is silly. You are a retired logistics officer in the very highly trained and compact Canadian armed forces. It is, or should be at least, beneath you to spout lefty propaganda designed to demonize and therefore dismiss ones debating foes which you substitute for logic, historical facts and reasoned debate between adults.

First I must counter your illogical premise that age of a law, even to the extent of antiquity is some automatic reason to invalidate a law. How about invalidating laws against murder? Heck Gordie they go back at least to the Code of Hammurabi. Golly! That's old! We can't be obeying old laws.

Our second amendment is just a written statement that people have a Natural Right to defense against predation by other governments, our own government, and lawless individuals

You then say: "Tis unfortunate that you were born a century and half too late. You would have fit in with the 1870's Dodge City and Tombstone very well. Fortunately most every lawless town of the old west sought a more civilized society and saw the benefit of not having people wander freely around the towns and cities carrying guns."

It's true that in the settlement of the American West, pioneers and townsfolk alike regularly carried rifles and pistols on their person. Anyone who went crazy and began shooting as in the case of today's church shooting in Texas would have been quickly dispatched. You are getting your 'history" from Hollywood movies and tv shows. It didn't happen the way writers, directors and cinematographers would find interesting so they spice it up.

In fact Gordie, shootings and big time shootouts were so rare that they form a part of American lore. The shootout at the OK Corral and the Great Northfield Minnesota Raid are all I can bring to mind of the sort of event that could be interesting and exciting enough to be made into a movie without needing to gin up excitement through inventive screenwriting. The raid on the Northfield bank iirc was perpetrated by a desperate Confederate cavalry raider unit after the war between the states ended.

You then go on: Then came along the NRA fully supported by white supremacists, KKK, organized crime, wanna-be cowboys and the looney-toons all waving the 2nd amendment created by flintlock carrying politicians holding some fear over past dealings with the British army

Jeesh Gordy, where to start. There is little to no historical accuracy in your above statement, just lefty media inspired hateful lies designed to demonize a group of humans who hold a different political/philosophical view than you.

We're Americans Gordie. People, not looney-toons. Not caricatures. I doubt if I could find a KKK meeting if I tried. The Klan's heyday was very nearly a hundred years ago. But like beating the Germans over the head with the Nazi's of 75 to 85 years ago, why give up a good truncheon merely because it no longer applies and hasn't for a very long time. Am I a "White Supremacist" for noticing that the criminality of Black and Latino young men, are virtually the only reason our crime rate is above that of England (which is catching up with the importation of young African and Middle Eastern males) or Belgium (which is also catching up) or Sweden (Oops wrong choice, Sweden is in competition with S, Africa for the rape capital of the world through their immigration policies. Would it be racist of me to say Go Sweden!)

We Americans are your peaceful neighbors. The Canadian.U.S. border is the longest international border in the world without military forts or even observation posts. We Americans are the ONLY reason you Canadians with your vast area and mineral and timber wealth were not eaten by a hungry Bear in the last century. Brave as you are, there's just not enough of you to hold your nation against a large determined aggressor.

Shame on you Gordie. Shame for kicking a friendly neighbor. Shame on you for taking your "history" from the entertainment industry. And shame on you for not bothering to scratch the surface below the paint job the lefty media paints on anyone or any people who aren't lefties.

You can do better. Please begin doing so.

 

[agog]

Nov 5, 2017 21:10:02 GMT -5 gordy said:

Nov 5, 2017 20:25:50 GMT -5 agog said:

Gordy.

Your stats are accurate afaik. They sound right anyway. Your interpretation has a flaw that leads to incorrect analysis.

For the benefit of the mathematically challenged ( ok, me) I'm going to round up your more exact 29,450 total of all shootings to 30,000.

Of the grand total of homicides (where someone dies) fully two thirds are suicides. Suicides are the largest fraction of the total firearm deaths. That's a sad statistic but it reflects more on the hollowness of our society than the perniciousness of firearms. Most of the suicides by firearms are by older White males. Sad. So two thirds of the 30,000 is 20,000. That leaves 10,000.

The next largest fraction of firearm deaths is gang and drug related. Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, MS13 etc. The fraction is one fifth of the 30,000 or 6,000. That's 6,000 out of the 10,000 left after subtracting suicides. These are mostly Black and Latino males between the ages of 15 to 30-35.

We now are left with 4,000 shootings (not all homicides) of which your figures say about 250 are justifiable homicides. Here is where I see a flaw your post. There are many justified shootings that are not homicides because the person shot did not die. One should not assume the remaining 3,750 shootings were not justified. Most of them were indeed justified as self defense, the person shot was not killed. I'm not saying all 3,750 were justified shootings. Many non homicide, non-justified shootings go back to the gangs/other criminals who are notoriously poor shots and indifferent to other people, including children, in the vicinity of the intended target.

I'm sorry that I don't have the exact stats in front of me but if you'd like to dialogue further I will find them and list them here.

If one removes the shootings, both homicide and non, perpetrated by Black and Latino males in the age group I already spoke of. The homicide rate (homicides per 100,000 people) for the U,S, is on par with that of England, Belgium and (dare I say?) Canada.

Firearms are the best self defense device yet developed by man. A pistol on the nightstand has protected many an older person and young mothers from the predations of criminals.

Agog ..... the following stats for 2013 were sourced by the FBI:

- 73,505 non fatal firearm injuries

- 33,636 deaths occurred by firearms

   - 11,206 were criminal homicides

   - 21,175 were suicides

   - 505 were accidental

   - 281 were of undetermined intent

   - 461 were justifiable law enforcement homicide shootings

   - 281 were justifiable citizen homicide shootings

We could look at these stats and perhaps come to some logical conclusion about having some form of gun control ( it is far too late for banning ownership outright ).

- some gun control may have significantly reduced the 21k suicides through some mental screening process,

- some control may have reduced the number of accidental deaths due to lack of training and competence in handling firearms

- considering that only 281 justifiable citizen homicides occurred perhaps because of self defense seems to be a very weak argument for the citizen ownership of guns at 350 million in 2013.

I believe the true reason that gun advocates don't want any type of gun control is because they have a very strong love of owning a deadly weapon and not for some trumped up notion of self defence.

   -

I gave this post a like Gordy because you are presenting facts, as you see them, and not merely name calling like a school child. The 281 figure is for justified citizen HOMICIDES> That figure is but a small subset of justifiable citizen shootings that did not result in death. There are probably hundreds or maybe even thousands of daily incidents that were stopped because a citizen merely pulled his or her pistol, causing the perp to flee.

I'm a little disappointed that you couldn'y seem to resist saying that you believe people want firearms for a reason that impunes their character ("...they have a very strong love of owning a deadly weapon.") But you did do better. Thanks.

[jrchico]

Just for everyone's information, the latest reports from Texas are that the maniac church shooter was stopped by and armed local that was a neighbor of the church and grabbed his rifle when he heard the shooting and went to investigate. He and a friend then proceed to pursue the shooter who crashed his truck at the end of the pursuit and either shot himself or was shot by the citizen.If the citizen doesn't want to be identified we will probably never know who really shot who.

[Beachguy]

Nov 5, 2017 21:16:09 GMT -5 gordy said:

I watch/listen to many different sources except that which you must follow from that blowhard Trump and his Twitter machine. When they finally impeach that nut case you will be lost without the Honest Trumpet all the news that is the news. Fortunately you can always tune into the reruns of Laugh-In.

Keep your fake and hate in your Country or we may not help you when you cry for help from our great leader .

[Beachguy]

Nov 6, 2017 2:50:37 GMT -5 jrchico said:

Just for everyone's information, the latest reports from Texas are that the maniac church shooter was stopped by and armed local that was a neighbor of the church and grabbed his rifle when he heard the shooting and went to investigate. He and a friend then proceed to pursue the shooter who crashed his truck at the end of the pursuit and either shot himself or was shot by the citizen.If the citizen doesn't want to be identified we will probably never know who really shot who.

Gun debate is over as a gun stopped a gun , that is the only way now in this society . 

[Socal Fan]

Nov 6, 2017 9:29:18 GMT -5 Beachguy said:

Gun debate is over as a gun stopped a gun

"A gun stopped a gun" ... but not before 26 people had been shot to death. That is more than the total number of gun homicides in all of Japan in the lat 5 years:

www.thedailybeast.com/texas-church-shooter-killed-more-than-japans-total-gun-homicides-for-5-years

[Deleted]

socalfan says:  
"A gun stopped a gun" ... but not before 26 people had been shot to death.

That's true, probably because the two that finally stopped him weren't in the church, and if any of the members there were licensed to carry, they either didn't take their gun to church or left them at the door.
The good guys don't carry in a no carry zone, but the bad guys do, and the only way to stop a shooter is with another gun, be that from the police or an armed bystander who's on the scene.

[gordy]

Nov 5, 2017 22:02:44 GMT -5 agog said:

Nov 5, 2017 20:34:36 GMT -5 gordy said:

Tis unfortunate that you were born a century and half too late.  You would have fit in with the 1870's Dodge City and Tombstone very well.  Fortunately most every lawless town of the old west sought a more civilized society and saw the benefit of not having people wander freely around the towns and cities carrying guns.  Then came along the NRA

fully supported by white supremacists, KKK, organized crime, wanna-be cowboys and the looney-toons all waving the 2nd amendment created by flintlock carrying politicians holding some fear over past dealings with the British army.

Gordy this is silly. You are a retired logistics officer in the very highly trained and compact Canadian armed forces. It is, or should be at least, beneath you to spout lefty propaganda designed to demonize and therefore dismiss ones debating foes which you substitute for logic, historical facts and reasoned debate between adults.

First I must counter your illogical premise that age of a law, even to the extent of antiquity is some automatic reason to invalidate a law. How about invalidating laws against murder? Heck Gordie they go back at least to the Code of Hammurabi. Golly! That's old! We can't be obeying old laws.

Our second amendment is just a written statement that people have a Natural Right to defense against predation by other governments, our own government, and lawless individuals

You then say: "Tis unfortunate that you were born a century and half too late. You would have fit in with the 1870's Dodge City and Tombstone very well. Fortunately most every lawless town of the old west sought a more civilized society and saw the benefit of not having people wander freely around the towns and cities carrying guns."

It's true that in the settlement of the American West, pioneers and townsfolk alike regularly carried rifles and pistols on their person. Anyone who went crazy and began shooting as in the case of today's church shooting in Texas would have been quickly dispatched. You are getting your 'history" from Hollywood movies and tv shows. It didn't happen the way writers, directors and cinematographers would find interesting so they spice it up.

In fact Gordie, shootings and big time shootouts were so rare that they form a part of American lore. The shootout at the OK Corral and the Great Northfield Minnesota Raid are all I can bring to mind of the sort of event that could be interesting and exciting enough to be made into a movie without needing to gin up excitement through inventive screenwriting. The raid on the Northfield bank iirc was perpetrated by a desperate Confederate cavalry raider unit after the war between the states ended.

You then go on: Then came along the NRA fully supported by white supremacists, KKK, organized crime, wanna-be cowboys and the looney-toons all waving the 2nd amendment created by flintlock carrying politicians holding some fear over past dealings with the British army

Jeesh Gordy, where to start. There is little to no historical accuracy in your above statement, just lefty media inspired hateful lies designed to demonize a group of humans who hold a different political/philosophical view than you.

We're Americans Gordie. People, not looney-toons. Not caricatures. I doubt if I could find a KKK meeting if I tried. The Klan's heyday was very nearly a hundred years ago. But like beating the Germans over the head with the Nazi's of 75 to 85 years ago, why give up a good truncheon merely because it no longer applies and hasn't for a very long time. Am I a "White Supremacist" for noticing that the criminality of Black and Latino young men, are virtually the only reason our crime rate is above that of England (which is catching up with the importation of young African and Middle Eastern males) or Belgium (which is also catching up) or Sweden (Oops wrong choice, Sweden is in competition with S, Africa for the rape capital of the world through their immigration policies. Would it be racist of me to say Go Sweden!)

We Americans are your peaceful neighbors. The Canadian.U.S. border is the longest international border in the world without military forts or even observation posts. We Americans are the ONLY reason you Canadians with your vast area and mineral and timber wealth were not eaten by a hungry Bear in the last century. Brave as you are, there's just not enough of you to hold your nation against a large determined aggressor.

Shame on you Gordie. Shame for kicking a friendly neighbor. Shame on you for taking your "history" from the entertainment industry. And shame on you for not bothering to scratch the surface below the paint job the lefty media paints on anyone or any people who aren't lefties.

You can do better. Please begin doing so.

 

Agog you are correct that this topic is silly I have said some things that you have not fully understood and then taken them out of context.  What I get from reading your rebuttal is a vigorous attempt to maintain the status quo around gun possession and use.  You apparently don't believe that the 2nd Amendment should be reviewed with a possible update to provide some measure of control of possession and use of firearms.  I'm pretty sure that in the late 1700'a when the 2nd amendment was ratified that those involved never visualized that ordinary citizens would have access to fully automatic weapons for the purpose of "self defence".  Many old laws have required updating or even been repealed.  Societal needs change.  The only societal rules that have not changed are the ten commandments as we know them in Christianity......probably because they were not written by lawyers ( ) ).

Let's revisit our comments about the old west.  My understanding for carrying a handgun was primarily to enable a horseman or range hand to access his weapon quickly when confronted by a predator or snake etc. while maintaining control of his horse.  The need for a handgun in an urban area was considerably less or ought to have been.  I believe as stronger government and law moved westward many communities moved further away from weapons possession.  I would bet that statistically a smaller portion of the countries population possessed weapons in the 1800's and early 1900's than today.  Somehow over the last 75 years or so the common citizen has felt some need (or desire) to own a weapon under the guise of having a need for self protection.  What caused this change?

I suppose part of the reason might be an issue of color/race suppression. 

You state that I should feel shame for expressing criticism about the US's reluctance to seriously look into some gun control legislation.  I have not suggested that the 2nd amendment be scrapped but rather that it be reviewed for the possibility of providing authority to impose new gun control legislation.   It is clearly too late to contemplate banning weapons outright.  But it certainly would be nice to see total restriction on owning automatic weapons by anyone other than the military.  I don't understand the need to own a large caliber handgun such as a 357 magnum.

You might want to look at news sources external to the US and get an understanding of how your allies feel the way the US is handling it's diplomatic issues when you can't seem to handle your domestic issues.  The number of mass shootings in the US this year alone is frightening and what is worse is that there seems to be a growing acceptance with the increased frequency.

Sorry Agog.....I don't feel the shame that you ought to feel about having an attitude of "such is life ........best we keep our guns handy".

However, I've said my peace on this subject in that I believe there is need of some gun control legislation.

[jrchico]

Nov 5, 2017 21:16:09 GMT -5 gordy said:

I watch/listen to many different sources except that which you must follow from that blowhard Trump and his Twitter machine. When they finally impeach that nut case you will be lost without the Honest Trumpet all the news that is the news. Fortunately you can always tune into the reruns of Laugh-In.

I almost find your arguments laughable. To read your comments it sounds like we have the KKK and white supremacists on every street corner. We have murders hiding in every alley and our President is an idiot. I have lived in this country for 73 years and i have yet to meet a KKK member or a white supremacist. I am however a member of the NRA and have been for 60 years. As far as our stupid ignorant idiot president is concerned, he somehow managed to win the election despite the attempt of the members of the swamp in both political parties to stop him. Now the swamp is trying to stop him from doing anything he promised he would do. Well they can slow him down but he will eventually get the people out that are and have been the problem. He has been getting them out one at a time. How you ask? How many people has he fired so far? They never seem to see it coming either.

[agog]

Nov 6, 2017 16:36:59 GMT -5 gordy said:

Nov 5, 2017 22:02:44 GMT -5 agog said:

Gordy this is silly. You are a retired logistics officer in the very highly trained and compact Canadian armed forces. It is, or should be at least, beneath you to spout lefty propaganda designed to demonize and therefore dismiss ones debating foes which you substitute for logic, historical facts and reasoned debate between adults.

First I must counter your illogical premise that age of a law, even to the extent of antiquity is some automatic reason to invalidate a law. How about invalidating laws against murder? Heck Gordie they go back at least to the Code of Hammurabi. Golly! That's old! We can't be obeying old laws.

Our second amendment is just a written statement that people have a Natural Right to defense against predation by other governments, our own government, and lawless individuals

You then say: "Tis unfortunate that you were born a century and half too late. You would have fit in with the 1870's Dodge City and Tombstone very well. Fortunately most every lawless town of the old west sought a more civilized society and saw the benefit of not having people wander freely around the towns and cities carrying guns."

It's true that in the settlement of the American West, pioneers and townsfolk alike regularly carried rifles and pistols on their person. Anyone who went crazy and began shooting as in the case of today's church shooting in Texas would have been quickly dispatched. You are getting your 'history" from Hollywood movies and tv shows. It didn't happen the way writers, directors and cinematographers would find interesting so they spice it up.

In fact Gordie, shootings and big time shootouts were so rare that they form a part of American lore. The shootout at the OK Corral and the Great Northfield Minnesota Raid are all I can bring to mind of the sort of event that could be interesting and exciting enough to be made into a movie without needing to gin up excitement through inventive screenwriting. The raid on the Northfield bank iirc was perpetrated by a desperate Confederate cavalry raider unit after the war between the states ended.

You then go on: Then came along the NRA fully supported by white supremacists, KKK, organized crime, wanna-be cowboys and the looney-toons all waving the 2nd amendment created by flintlock carrying politicians holding some fear over past dealings with the British army

Jeesh Gordy, where to start. There is little to no historical accuracy in your above statement, just lefty media inspired hateful lies designed to demonize a group of humans who hold a different political/philosophical view than you.

We're Americans Gordie. People, not looney-toons. Not caricatures. I doubt if I could find a KKK meeting if I tried. The Klan's heyday was very nearly a hundred years ago. But like beating the Germans over the head with the Nazi's of 75 to 85 years ago, why give up a good truncheon merely because it no longer applies and hasn't for a very long time. Am I a "White Supremacist" for noticing that the criminality of Black and Latino young men, are virtually the only reason our crime rate is above that of England (which is catching up with the importation of young African and Middle Eastern males) or Belgium (which is also catching up) or Sweden (Oops wrong choice, Sweden is in competition with S, Africa for the rape capital of the world through their immigration policies. Would it be racist of me to say Go Sweden!)

We Americans are your peaceful neighbors. The Canadian.U.S. border is the longest international border in the world without military forts or even observation posts. We Americans are the ONLY reason you Canadians with your vast area and mineral and timber wealth were not eaten by a hungry Bear in the last century. Brave as you are, there's just not enough of you to hold your nation against a large determined aggressor.

Shame on you Gordie. Shame for kicking a friendly neighbor. Shame on you for taking your "history" from the entertainment industry. And shame on you for not bothering to scratch the surface below the paint job the lefty media paints on anyone or any people who aren't lefties.

You can do better. Please begin doing so.

 

Agog you are correct that this topic is silly I have said some things that you have not fully understood and then taken them out of context.  What I get from reading your rebuttal is a vigorous attempt to maintain the status quo around gun possession and use.  You apparently don't believe that the 2nd Amendment should be reviewed with a possible update to provide some measure of control of possession and use of firearms.  I'm pretty sure that in the late 1700'a when the 2nd amendment was ratified that those involved never visualized that ordinary citizens would have access to fully automatic weapons for the purpose of "self defence".  Many old laws have required updating or even been repealed.  Societal needs change.  The only societal rules that have not changed are the ten commandments as we know them in Christianity......probably because they were not written by lawyers ( ) ).

Let's revisit our comments about the old west.  My understanding for carrying a handgun was primarily to enable a horseman or range hand to access his weapon quickly when confronted by a predator or snake etc. while maintaining control of his horse.  The need for a handgun in an urban area was considerably less or ought to have been.  I believe as stronger government and law moved westward many communities moved further away from weapons possession.  I would bet that statistically a smaller portion of the countries population possessed weapons in the 1800's and early 1900's than today.  Somehow over the last 75 years or so the common citizen has felt some need (or desire) to own a weapon under the guise of having a need for self protection.  What caused this change?

I suppose part of the reason might be an issue of color/race suppression. 

You state that I should feel shame for expressing criticism about the US's reluctance to seriously look into some gun control legislation.  I have not suggested that the 2nd amendment be scrapped but rather that it be reviewed for the possibility of providing authority to impose new gun control legislation.   It is clearly too late to contemplate banning weapons outright.  But it certainly would be nice to see total restriction on owning automatic weapons by anyone other than the military.  I don't understand the need to own a large caliber handgun such as a 357 magnum.

You might want to look at news sources external to the US and get an understanding of how your allies feel the way the US is handling it's diplomatic issues when you can't seem to handle your domestic issues.  The number of mass shootings in the US this year alone is frightening and what is worse is that there seems to be a growing acceptance with the increased frequency.

Sorry Agog.....I don't feel the shame that you ought to feel about having an attitude of "such is life ........best we keep our guns handy".

However, I've said my peace on this subject in that I believe there is need of some gun control legislation.

Good post Gordie. You presented your views without indicating there is some moral or psychological defect in those who hold different views. Thanks for not mentioning my small private parts. <------------That's a joke son. You're s'posed to laugh.

I still have issues with your position and several points you advanced. I'm tired after work this Monday evening so I won't respond tonight.

[Beachguy]

Nov 6, 2017 16:36:59 GMT -5 gordy said:

Nov 5, 2017 22:02:44 GMT -5 agog said:

Gordy this is silly. You are a retired logistics officer in the very highly trained and compact Canadian armed forces. It is, or should be at least, beneath you to spout lefty propaganda designed to demonize and therefore dismiss ones debating foes which you substitute for logic, historical facts and reasoned debate between adults.

First I must counter your illogical premise that age of a law, even to the extent of antiquity is some automatic reason to invalidate a law. How about invalidating laws against murder? Heck Gordie they go back at least to the Code of Hammurabi. Golly! That's old! We can't be obeying old laws.

Our second amendment is just a written statement that people have a Natural Right to defense against predation by other governments, our own government, and lawless individuals

You then say: "Tis unfortunate that you were born a century and half too late. You would have fit in with the 1870's Dodge City and Tombstone very well. Fortunately most every lawless town of the old west sought a more civilized society and saw the benefit of not having people wander freely around the towns and cities carrying guns."

It's true that in the settlement of the American West, pioneers and townsfolk alike regularly carried rifles and pistols on their person. Anyone who went crazy and began shooting as in the case of today's church shooting in Texas would have been quickly dispatched. You are getting your 'history" from Hollywood movies and tv shows. It didn't happen the way writers, directors and cinematographers would find interesting so they spice it up.

In fact Gordie, shootings and big time shootouts were so rare that they form a part of American lore. The shootout at the OK Corral and the Great Northfield Minnesota Raid are all I can bring to mind of the sort of event that could be interesting and exciting enough to be made into a movie without needing to gin up excitement through inventive screenwriting. The raid on the Northfield bank iirc was perpetrated by a desperate Confederate cavalry raider unit after the war between the states ended.

You then go on: Then came along the NRA fully supported by white supremacists, KKK, organized crime, wanna-be cowboys and the looney-toons all waving the 2nd amendment created by flintlock carrying politicians holding some fear over past dealings with the British army

Jeesh Gordy, where to start. There is little to no historical accuracy in your above statement, just lefty media inspired hateful lies designed to demonize a group of humans who hold a different political/philosophical view than you.

We're Americans Gordie. People, not looney-toons. Not caricatures. I doubt if I could find a KKK meeting if I tried. The Klan's heyday was very nearly a hundred years ago. But like beating the Germans over the head with the Nazi's of 75 to 85 years ago, why give up a good truncheon merely because it no longer applies and hasn't for a very long time. Am I a "White Supremacist" for noticing that the criminality of Black and Latino young men, are virtually the only reason our crime rate is above that of England (which is catching up with the importation of young African and Middle Eastern males) or Belgium (which is also catching up) or Sweden (Oops wrong choice, Sweden is in competition with S, Africa for the rape capital of the world through their immigration policies. Would it be racist of me to say Go Sweden!)

We Americans are your peaceful neighbors. The Canadian.U.S. border is the longest international border in the world without military forts or even observation posts. We Americans are the ONLY reason you Canadians with your vast area and mineral and timber wealth were not eaten by a hungry Bear in the last century. Brave as you are, there's just not enough of you to hold your nation against a large determined aggressor.

Shame on you Gordie. Shame for kicking a friendly neighbor. Shame on you for taking your "history" from the entertainment industry. And shame on you for not bothering to scratch the surface below the paint job the lefty media paints on anyone or any people who aren't lefties.

You can do better. Please begin doing so.

 

Agog you are correct that this topic is silly I have said some things that you have not fully understood and then taken them out of context.  What I get from reading your rebuttal is a vigorous attempt to maintain the status quo around gun possession and use.  You apparently don't believe that the 2nd Amendment should be reviewed with a possible update to provide some measure of control of possession and use of firearms.  I'm pretty sure that in the late 1700'a when the 2nd amendment was ratified that those involved never visualized that ordinary citizens would have access to fully automatic weapons for the purpose of "self defence".  Many old laws have required updating or even been repealed.  Societal needs change.  The only societal rules that have not changed are the ten commandments as we know them in Christianity......probably because they were not written by lawyers ( ) ).

Let's revisit our comments about the old west.  My understanding for carrying a handgun was primarily to enable a horseman or range hand to access his weapon quickly when confronted by a predator or snake etc. while maintaining control of his horse.  The need for a handgun in an urban area was considerably less or ought to have been.  I believe as stronger government and law moved westward many communities moved further away from weapons possession.  I would bet that statistically a smaller portion of the countries population possessed weapons in the 1800's and early 1900's than today.  Somehow over the last 75 years or so the common citizen has felt some need (or desire) to own a weapon under the guise of having a need for self protection.  What caused this change?

I suppose part of the reason might be an issue of color/race suppression. 

You state that I should feel shame for expressing criticism about the US's reluctance to seriously look into some gun control legislation.  I have not suggested that the 2nd amendment be scrapped but rather that it be reviewed for the possibility of providing authority to impose new gun control legislation.   It is clearly too late to contemplate banning weapons outright.  But it certainly would be nice to see total restriction on owning automatic weapons by anyone other than the military.  I don't understand the need to own a large caliber handgun such as a 357 magnum.

You might want to look at news sources external to the US and get an understanding of how your allies feel the way the US is handling it's diplomatic issues when you can't seem to handle your domestic issues.  The number of mass shootings in the US this year alone is frightening and what is worse is that there seems to be a growing acceptance with the increased frequency.

Sorry Agog.....I don't feel the shame that you ought to feel about having an attitude of "such is life ........best we keep our guns handy".

However, I've said my peace on this subject in that I believe there is need of some gun control legislation.

Only people need to think are the people of their land not nosy people from other lands . yes the USA is a gun country an always was , it is what it is .

[Beachguy]

Nov 6, 2017 14:14:59 GMT -5 @anonymous said:

socalfan says:  
"A gun stopped a gun" ... but not before 26 people had been shot to death.

That's true, probably because the two that finally stopped him weren't in the church, and if any of the members there were licensed to carry, they either didn't take their gun to church or left them at the door.
The good guys don't carry in a no carry zone, but the bad guys do, and the only way to stop a shooter is with another gun, be that from the police or an armed bystander who's on the scene.

Many churches have for years had a off duty police officer parked in lot at service times in police car . many schools in the south have a police officer stationed at schools . it is society of today .